Oct. 3, 2025

When Love Feels Like Judgment: Navigating Connection with our Adult Children

When Love Feels Like Judgment: Navigating Connection with our Adult Children

Send us a text What if the words you use to show love are the very ones your adult child hears as judgment? That tension—care that lands as critique—drives so many family conflicts, and Deborah Tannen gives us the language map to change it. We sit down with the Georgetown linguist and bestselling author to explore conversational style, meta-messages, and the subtle ways timing, tone, and turn‑taking shape intimacy at home. Tannen shares vivid stories—from “Do you like your hair that lo...

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Send us a text

What if the words you use to show love are the very ones your adult child hears as judgment? That tension—care that lands as critique—drives so many family conflicts, and Deborah Tannen gives us the language map to change it.

We sit down with the Georgetown linguist and bestselling author to explore conversational style, meta-messages, and the subtle ways timing, tone, and turn‑taking shape intimacy at home. 

Tannen shares vivid stories—from “Do you like your hair that long?” to car‑ride silences—that reveal how message and meta‑message diverge, why “helpful” advice stings, and how indirect questions can be invitations to co‑decide rather than games to decode. We trace the fault lines of gendered talk, where solutions collide with “troubles talk,” and show practical scripts to ask consent before giving feedback, translate intent across styles, and keep curiosity alive without sounding intrusive.

We also dig into complementary schismogenesis—the spiral where differences push each other to extremes—and how to stop the chase/withdraw dance by adjusting cadence and expectations. Birth order roles resurface in adulthood, turning firstborn competence into control and younger resistance into reflex; naming those roles loosens their grip. Tannen’s take on apologies is both moving and actionable: why impact matters more than defense, how a simple acknowledgment can heal years of hurt, and why late‑life apologies carry disproportionate power. Along the way we address the “big three” hot zones—hair, clothes, weight—plus social media’s sting of exclusion, and we offer boundary phrases that preserve both bond and autonomy.

If you’ve ever thought, “I was just caring,” while someone heard, “You’re not enough,” this conversation offers clear tools to bridge the gap. Listen, share with your family, and try one shift this week: ask before advising, label your intent, or offer a four‑part apology. 

This conversation is filled with insights that can help you strengthen your most important relationships. You may also enjoy this Youtube video of a talk Dr. Tannen gave in Amsterdam highlighting the conversational differences between men and women.  We found it fascinating. 

🎧 Listen now and join us in exploring the power of language, connection, and understanding.

Share your feedback about the episode by emailing us  at biteyourtongue@gmail.com.

Follow us on social media and visit biteyourtonguepodcast.com. 

Thank you to Connie Gorant Fisher, our audio engineer.  

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00:00 - Caring Or Criticism?

00:29 - Welcome And Guest Introduction

01:11 - Conversational Style Foundations

03:20 - Getting The Floor And “Interruptions”

06:17 - Gendered Talk And Indirectness

10:43 - Mothers, Daughters, And The “Big Three”

14:16 - Meta-Messages Explained

16:30 - Complementary Schismogenesis

18:15 - Closeness Versus Independence

20:30 - Birth Order And Family Roles

22:00 - The Power And Price Of Apology

25:20 - Two Takeaways And Closing

WEBVTT

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Caring and criticizing are created by the same words.

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No matter how convinced you are that you are caring, this is parent, if you're giving advice or suggestion, it's criticism on some level.

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And from the point of view of the adult child, yeah, you're feeling criticized, but it's caring when they say no one's gonna tell you because they don't love you as much as I do, there's a level of truth of that.

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Hey everyone, welcome to Bite Your Tongue the podcast.

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Join me, your host, Denise Corinth, as we explore the ins and outs of building healthy relationships with our adult children.

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Together, we'll speak with experts, share heartfelt stories, and get timely advice, addressing topics that matter most to you.

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Get ready to dive deep and learn to build and nurture deep connections with our adult children.

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And of course, when to bite our tongues.

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So let's get started.

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Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Bite Your Tongue.

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Today's gonna be one great episode.

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I'm so excited.

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We're welcoming Dr.

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Deborah Tannin.

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She's a distinguished professor of linguistics at Georgetown University and one of the world's leading experts on how everyday talk shapes our closest relationships.

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We are so fortunate to have her with us today.

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Her groundbreaking bestseller, You Just Don't Understand, changed the way the world thinks about communication between men and women.

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Since then, she's written a series of books that dive into family talk, including I only say that because I love you, which features the much discussed chapter, I'm still your mother, and you're wearing that.

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I think all of us can relate to those titles because they're phrases we've heard or even used ourselves at one time or another.

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But really, what makes Dr.

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Tannin's work so special is she doesn't just analyze conversations.

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She shows us how even the simplest remarks, remarks we make every day, carry years of history, emotion, and meaning.

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And most importantly, she offers tools to help us move past conflict and into deeper connection.

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So let's dive in.

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Welcome, Dr.

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Tan.

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And we are so glad you're with us today.

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And I want to say that I especially loved your books and talks, how you gave personal stories and concrete examples.

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I'm hoping you're going to share some of those today.

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I definitely think in terms of examples.

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And I think it helps our listeners.

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Your career began in linguistics, yet you've become one of the most recognized voices on how language impacts our personal relationships.

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How did you move towards this whole area of family talk?

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And what you would call a sociolinguist.

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So from the very start, yes, it's the field of linguistics, but it was how people use language in their everyday lives.

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And it's kind of hard to separate language from relationships and you know what we're trying to do with it.

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Let me start with how I got into the whole field, which is actually building.

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Okay.

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Okay, go ahead.

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For my dissertation, I was interested in the issue of, and I'll talk about this all the time, what I call conversational style.

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The idea that we're just talking, but we have to make some decision about how loudly or softly, how close or far we're going to stand, how direct or indirect we're going to be, on and on and on, all these decisions.

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And we think we're just talking.

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But depending on the culture, uh, which could be part of the country that you grew up in, the ethnic background, personality, we have different conversational styles.

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If you talk to someone whose style is similar, chances are they what you what you mean and what they hear is going to be relatively similar.

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And if their styles are different, then chances are they won't.

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They may misunderstand what you intend and they will get impressions of you as a person.

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Okay, so I was going to write a dissertation and I record I was recording all my conversations at the time, but I settled on one that was a dinner table conversation, happened to be Thanksgiving, six of us all single.

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Uh it was me, my best friend, his brother, his former wife, another friend of his, and a friend of that friend.

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So I was gonna look at each individual's conversational style and see how it affected the conversation.

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Just by chance, I and my friend and his brother are from New York City, raised in New York City, and New York Jewish background, although it's East European Jewish background.

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I have written an article about it calling it New York Jewish conversational style.

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It's East European.

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I mean, it's kind of New York and it's Eastern European.

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And then the other two were from California, and then one was from British.

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Well, it turned out I couldn't say anything about the conversational styles other than the three New Yorkers.

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The others had a hard time getting the floor.

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Now, it wasn't that they never talked, you know, if they they might get the floor at some point and tell a very long story, but they couldn't be part of the give and take.

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So I ended up writing about that.

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It's kind of emblematic of the uh point about conversational style that I developed in all my books afterwards.

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Just take the issue of getting the floor.

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We all know conversation is a matter of you take a turn, I take a turn.

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How do you know when the other person's turn is done and your turn is uh is up?

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Or how do you know whether they're stopping because they're giving up, you know, they're panning over the floor, or they're just catching their breath.

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This is something that I often I do illustrate with my two fingers up.

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I think you can imagine what I'm saying without seeing the two fingers up.

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If one person is expecting a slightly shorter pause than the other, the shorter pause comes first.

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And so you get the impression the other person's done or they're not saying anything.

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You don't want there to be an uncomfortable silence, so you fill it and you do it again and you do it again.

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And actually, with uh the style that I ended up calling high involvement, and I can explain that too later, you might not actually wait for silence.

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People kind of run down.

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I'm an interrupter.

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Well, this is one of my major, major points.

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So I'm glad you gave me the opportunity to say that right up front.

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The impression is interruption, but it's not the intention.

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In co-stylistic speech, in other words, among ourselves, nobody felt they had to stop just because someone else started.

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You trust the other person.

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If they're not done, they keep talking and you back off and you find another time.

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The most extreme example was one of the uh it was actually my friend's brother.

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He was trying to get the floor to say something, it wouldn't work, he'd back off, he'd try again, he backed off seven times, and he got the floor and he was happy, and we were happy.

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He wanted to say it and he said it.

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The Californians, if they tried once and it wasn't picked up, they didn't try again.

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So it's an economy.

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You're trusting the other person to find their way in versus you trust other people to let you in.

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Okay.

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Let's start with the book You Don't Understand, because the one chapter about mothers and daughters really stood out.

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So take us from there to then your two books on the relationship and family.

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Okay.

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Yeah, sure.

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So in the book You Just Don't Understand, which is about women and men, right, which was actually my 10th book.

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Okay.

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Second for general readers.

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Well, Matt also became a New York Times bestseller.

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That was the huge one.

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That was when your sister said you deserve a little bit of attention or your 15 minutes of fame, right?

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That's sisters for you, yeah.

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Yep.

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Yeah.

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So I had written a book called That's Not What I Meant, which was laying out for general readers all this idea about conversational style that I mentioned.

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Uh it had one chapter on gender, and that's the one everybody wanted to talk about.

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Right.

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So that was then my next book.

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I was not a specialist in gender, I was a specialist in this idea of conversational style.

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But I approached the women and men as cross-cultural communication because it shared a lot with that framework.

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I want to tell my listeners that this book is so much better than Venus and Mars, whatever that book was called.

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So if you think you've read it all, pick up her book.

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You just don't understand.

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Now go ahead.

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Yeah, thank you.

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Thank you for saying that.

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That one did come out after I'd been on the bestsellers for a couple of years.

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So take an example.

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A couple of riding in the car.

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And this was actually asked was it was the guy who asked me this.

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He said he's riding in the car with his wife, uh, coming back from something the night before.

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And she asked him, Are you thirsty, dear?

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Would you like to stop for a drink?

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And he wasn't.

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So he said no.

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And then later he discovered that she was kind of annoyed because she had wanted to stop.

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And he said, Why does she play games with me?

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Why doesn't she just tell me that she wanted to stop for a drink?

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And I said, I'm pretty sure she didn't expect a yes-no answer.

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She probably expected something like, I don't know, how do you feel about it?

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And then she could say, I don't know, how do you feel about it?

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And they make a decision taking other people's preferences into account.

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And that's the key.

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You don't make a demand, you find out how where other people are.

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So she was opening a space, opening a conversation by which she would get to say what she wanted, he would get to say what he wanted.

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And they might have gone or not gone, but they showed consideration for the other.

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His answer, no, to her, meant, I don't care what you want, only what I want matters.

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But that's a different economy.

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Again, in his style, if she wants to, she would say it.

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And if he didn't agree, he would say, I don't really want to.

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Is that all right?

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Or if he wanted to, he'd say, Okay.

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So people again trust the word linguists call the style that I've described as the wife asking indirectness.

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She was communicating, but not putting everything in words.

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By the way, we're all indirect, and I can give examples many, many more examples of that.

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So that would be an example, and it turned out to be very, very common between women and men.

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Uh somebody came up to me after talking.

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He said, You know, I with my wife and I were reading the book in the car, and she was reading it to me, and she read that thing, and I said, you know, we wouldn't do that.

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And then she said, Do you want to listen to music?

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And he said, Nope.

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So another just uh quick example.

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It's often pointed out that a woman will talk about a problem, and the guy suggests a solution, and she's frustrated.

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She wanted to talk about it.

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There, too, I would say it's not so much whether you want a solution or not.

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You're opening up a certain kind of conversation.

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So you say a describe a problem to a woman friend.

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She might say, Oh, really?

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You know, why do you think he said that?

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And then what did you say?

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And then, well, what do you think you might do?

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And what do you think he might do if you do that?

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You do end up getting to a solution, but you have a conversation about it.

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And that shows your interest, it shows that you care.

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I I could talk for an hour about husbands and wives, but that's a whole nother conversation.

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So I want to get into what my listeners want.

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Maybe someday, if you're open, we'd do another one on men and women.

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I would love to, because it's so great.

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But in one of your talks, you shared that you spoke with many mothers and daughters.

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And when you spoke with ones that said, we don't have any conflict, I think the mother said, I bite my tongue, and the daughter said, My mother just isn't judgmental.

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So, since the podcast is called Bite Your Tongue, you can imagine it struck a chord with me.

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But here's the question that I raise how do you be authentic with your adult children?

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Did you talk about the what shows caring, what shows criticism?

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What are techniques to be authentic, but not feel like you're criticizing, not biting your tongue all the time?

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Right.

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And I and I will start with that was kind of uh that was the exception.

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Right.

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Yeah, yeah.

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That's what you said.

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Very much an exception.

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The most common complaint I heard from adult children about their mothers, she's critical.

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Right.

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The most common complaint I heard from mothers of adult daughters, I can't open my mouth.

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She takes everything as criticism.

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And maybe this is a bit of linguistics.

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We are inclined to think words can only mean one thing.

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So I know you've been critical.

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So you say you're not, you're being disingenuous.

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I know I'm just wanted to help you.

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You're telling me I'm criticizing.

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Why are you so sensitive?

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What's the matter with you?

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They're both the true.

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They're both true.

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And you have to hold in your mind if you offer advice or suggestion for improvement, there is implied criticism.

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Doing something wrong, you wouldn't need the advice.

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I I like to tell this example was my mother.

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Okay.

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I was visiting, they were retired, they were older visiting, and my mother said, Do you like your hair that long?

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And I laughed.

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And she said, Why?

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And I said, Well, it was when I was writing the book.

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And I said, And so many women are telling me that their mothers are critical of their hair.

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I talked about three things hair, clothes, and weight.

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My mother said, I wasn't criticizing.

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And then later in the visit, I said, Mom, what do you think of my hair?

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She said, I think it's a little too long.

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You know, there's an assumption.

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Part of it is many of our conversations have a history.

00:13:38.480 --> 00:13:38.879
Yeah.

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So you know what your mother is inclined to not totally approve of or be concerned about.

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Okay.

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So are are you saying that as a mother of adult children, we really should never say anything?

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Because if your friend said to you, Do you like your hair?

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your friend actually could probably say directly, Deborah, I really like your hair shorter.

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And you would say, Do you?

00:14:01.519 --> 00:14:02.799
You know, tell me more.

00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:04.240
I might ask, by the way.

00:14:04.399 --> 00:14:05.200
Oh, I got my haircut.

00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:05.759
What do you think?

00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:06.240
Exactly.

00:14:06.320 --> 00:14:07.600
But your mother can't say that.

00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:12.320
Every one of us has to be an observer of our own interactions.

00:14:12.559 --> 00:14:19.840
If I say you should you should do something a certain way, it's going to be perfect for one person and terrible for someone else.

00:14:20.080 --> 00:14:25.039
This concept that we each have different conversational styles is really the bedrock.

00:14:25.120 --> 00:14:26.320
You have to start from that.

00:14:26.480 --> 00:14:33.759
You need antenna rolled out to see what is the kind of thing that gets a bad response and back off on those things.

00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:36.879
That kind of is summarizes what I was describing before.

00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:37.279
Okay.

00:14:37.519 --> 00:14:41.120
You think you're showing caring, and it's going to be taken as criticism.

00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:43.759
A woman told me this, a woman in her 60s.

00:14:44.000 --> 00:14:50.080
She said, My mother's losing her eyesight, but she can still spot a pimple across the room.

00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:55.200
Now, the mother is probably not thinking, I'm going to criticize.

00:14:55.279 --> 00:15:00.799
It's, I want to recommend this cream that I read about, or I bought you this cream.

00:15:01.279 --> 00:15:06.639
And who else thinks that that pimple is the main thing on your face?

00:15:06.960 --> 00:15:07.279
You.

00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:09.039
That's exactly right.

00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:14.159
So yeah, it's caring, but it also is criticizing.

00:15:14.320 --> 00:15:19.279
So realizing that the same words are doing both, the starting point.

00:15:19.600 --> 00:15:21.840
You know, another story you said that I just loved.

00:15:21.919 --> 00:15:27.600
And I just reminded me, I think your parents were in their 90s, your mother was very sick, you know, but your mother said something.

00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:31.039
I think the one you this might be this wasn't me if if this was it.

00:15:31.279 --> 00:15:34.080
Somebody told me that her mother was in the hospital.

00:15:34.159 --> 00:15:45.679
She was so concerned that she got a call, you know, she jumped on an airplane, comes into the hospital room, bends down to kiss her mother, and her mother says, When's the last time you did your roots?

00:15:45.919 --> 00:15:48.559
Oh, and she loved it.

00:15:49.039 --> 00:15:51.200
She loved it because it meant my mother's okay.

00:15:51.440 --> 00:15:53.840
Well, so, and I think this is quite true.

00:15:54.159 --> 00:15:56.080
You said, but it's really caring.

00:15:56.639 --> 00:15:59.360
Yes, but it's also really criticism.

00:15:59.600 --> 00:16:03.039
We have to keep in our minds that that it's both.

00:16:03.279 --> 00:16:06.000
And this idea that to be authentic is to say it.

00:16:06.080 --> 00:16:08.080
You know, there's lots of things we don't say.

00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:12.799
It's nothing inauthentic about not saying lots of things that we think.

00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:15.200
The the term we use meta communication.

00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:17.440
Yeah, let's talk about these meta messages.

00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:18.559
Absolutely.

00:16:18.799 --> 00:16:20.240
Have a conversation.

00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:22.480
This is what I think is going on.

00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:24.159
I think I'm showing caring.

00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:28.000
I'm just now I realize that I'm actually criticizing.

00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:28.559
Right.

00:16:29.440 --> 00:16:30.879
But the other side too.

00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:32.000
I love this one.

00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:34.080
A woman told me, thank you so much.

00:16:34.240 --> 00:16:38.000
You know, this was having read my book, thank you so much for that book.

00:16:38.159 --> 00:16:42.399
She said, I visited my mother, and for the first time we didn't argue.

00:16:42.559 --> 00:16:44.000
And I said, That's so wonderful.

00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:46.480
You know, can you explain what was different?

00:16:46.639 --> 00:16:48.720
She said, Well, here's an example.

00:16:48.879 --> 00:16:55.279
Uh, while I was visiting her, I went shopping and I bought two pairs of socks, one black, one navy.

00:16:55.519 --> 00:17:01.440
The next day I was wearing one of the pairs of socks, and my mother said, Are you sure you're not wearing one of each color?

00:17:01.679 --> 00:17:04.720
And she said, In the past, I would have blown up.

00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:09.519
Mom, I have a master's degree, and you don't think I can match my socks.

00:17:09.839 --> 00:17:14.960
But she stopped for a second and she thought, Who else is gonna care about the color of my socks?

00:17:15.759 --> 00:17:17.519
So much of that is so true.

00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:20.400
And that was the connection I was gonna make way, way back.

00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:28.640
That to ask questions about you know how what's going on and what did you eat for dinner, and who did you meet, and how did you like it?

00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:31.680
And it shows all of that shows caring.

00:17:31.839 --> 00:17:37.359
And there's um, think of a woman who said uh about her mother, who else can I tell?

00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:39.599
I got a good deal on toilet paper, right?

00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:42.640
Caring about the details of your life.

00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:45.440
And that is more, tends to be more women than men.

00:17:45.519 --> 00:17:50.240
I mean, that's the kind of thing that I'm one of three sisters, and my father would.

00:17:50.400 --> 00:17:52.799
What do all you girls find to talk about?

00:17:53.359 --> 00:17:59.279
Why do you think sons don't have this situation as much with their parents or their mother?

00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:02.880
Well, one thing is I said hair closing weight.

00:18:03.119 --> 00:18:03.680
Right, right, right.

00:18:04.400 --> 00:18:09.839
It's appearance and women's appearance is much more scrutinized in our culture.

00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:13.680
And we have a lot more options that we have to choose from.

00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:15.279
Styles change.

00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:17.440
I often do this when I'm uh giving talks.

00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:23.839
Look around the room, I'll say, and the largest group I ever did this with was 2000 in the Kennedy Center concert hall.

00:18:24.079 --> 00:18:24.319
Okay.

00:18:24.559 --> 00:18:25.119
Look around.

00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:29.119
Do you see any two women with the same hairstyle?

00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:34.160
No, no, there's bangs, no bangs, short, colored, what color?

00:18:34.319 --> 00:18:36.559
You could endless, endless, endless.

00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:44.160
And yeah, there could be a guy with something unusual, you know, a ponytail or uh spiky uh stuff sticking up.

00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:50.880
But the most men make the choice of just this is a term we use in linguistics, it's unmarked.

00:18:50.960 --> 00:18:53.920
It doesn't get any attention, just neutral.

00:18:54.079 --> 00:18:55.440
We don't have a neutral.

00:18:55.599 --> 00:18:57.200
So that's two reasons right there.

00:18:57.359 --> 00:19:06.160
More attention on our appearance, and we have to choose from such a range of styles that any choice we make, somebody's gonna think we didn't make the right choice.

00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:07.200
I think that's true.

00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:13.839
I think must have to do something with personality too, because I know my son, I could say, Why are you wearing pants like that?

00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:15.599
And he would have no reaction to it.

00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:20.559
I don't know, these are in style now, or you know, I'm trying to get them a little shorter, blah, blah, blah.

00:19:20.799 --> 00:19:25.920
He for some reason doesn't take it as a criticism, he takes it as caring.

00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:31.519
Well, how much attention has he had to pay to his clothes?

00:19:31.759 --> 00:19:32.079
None.

00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:37.680
And how much is he going to be judged as a person based on his choice?

00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:38.480
Interesting.

00:19:38.720 --> 00:19:41.920
I'm gonna make one more, one more point about what's different.

00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:50.319
So much of what women do together is talk, a place of talk in a relationship, and nothing is true of all women and men.

00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:53.599
I have to say that as many times as you know, we can say it.

00:19:53.759 --> 00:19:58.160
But the tendency is for girls and women to spend more time sitting and talking.

00:19:58.319 --> 00:20:03.200
And we do troubles talk, you know, talking about things that are bothering us, talk about personal things.

00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:04.480
It's more sensitive.

00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:08.559
And we're talking more, so we have more opportunity to say the wrong thing.

00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:13.920
For most boys and men, they can be very good friends, but they won't talk as much.

00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:16.880
It's doing things together, it's being together.

00:20:17.200 --> 00:20:20.720
He plays tennis with the guy and she gets together with the wife.

00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:24.720
And this, I can't tell you how many people this similar thing has happened to.

00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:28.400
And she says, gee, you know, isn't that terrible that they're getting divorced?

00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:29.440
And he says, They are.

00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:30.400
I didn't know that.

00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:31.759
Oh, this is so true.

00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:32.559
This is so true.

00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:36.240
And he mentioned, no, you know, we're not talking about our marriage, we're playing tennis.

00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:38.400
I talk about that a lot with my friends.

00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:48.480
This is the explanation, and people trace this to kids, how we've used language growing up, that the little girl's gonna be sitting and talking and whispering in each other's ear.

00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:52.640
The boys are gonna be hitting each other and criticizing each other, and no one cares.

00:20:52.960 --> 00:21:01.920
All right, we need to talk about the meta messages, and then I also want you to talk about this concept, and I'm not gonna say it right complementary shimogenesis.

00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:04.319
How do you say schismogenesis?

00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:06.079
I should know that by speaking Greek, right?

00:21:06.240 --> 00:21:07.759
Schismogenesis, right?

00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:15.759
Okay, so let's do the meta messages and then the complementary schismogenesis, yes.

00:21:16.400 --> 00:21:18.240
Everything we say has these two levels.

00:21:18.480 --> 00:21:27.839
Message is the meaning of the words, meta message is what does it mean that we're saying these words in this way at this time in this relationship.

00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:37.759
Very often we end up arguing about the words, but it's the meta message, it's what we think the person is implying, what we think it says about what they how they feel about us.

00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:41.279
So, perfect example, my mother asking, Do you like your hair that long?

00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:42.640
That's the message.

00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:44.960
She's asking me if I like my hair that long.

00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:47.440
The meta message is your hair is too long.

00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:55.759
And I know it because the fact that she's asking a history that I I know she tended to think my hair was too long.

00:21:56.079 --> 00:21:59.519
And often that's the kind of thing that we are responding to.

00:21:59.839 --> 00:22:01.759
Can you give a couple more examples of that?

00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:04.480
Yeah, let me just give you some yeah.

00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:07.839
So two people are riding in a car and they're not talking.

00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:10.319
What's the meta message of that silence?

00:22:10.559 --> 00:22:13.200
Is it you're mad at me and that's why you're not talking?

00:22:13.359 --> 00:22:16.880
Is it you're so comfortable with me that you don't feel you have to talk?

00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:22.000
Is there something that I should be asking you and you're angry that I'm not asking you?

00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:26.799
So even no words can have these all these different messages.

00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:27.759
So true.

00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:32.559
Okay, let's go to complimentary complimentary schizmo genesis.

00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:33.359
You say it.

00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:33.759
Okay.

00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:37.119
This traces to an anthropologist, Gregory Bateson.

00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:45.359
He was married to Margaret Mead, and I like to say because how often do you have to say who a man is by telling you who his wife was?

00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:48.720
It's worth my It's definitely worth doing.

00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:49.119
Absolutely.

00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:51.279
So a schism is a split.

00:22:51.519 --> 00:22:53.119
Genesis is creation.

00:22:53.279 --> 00:22:58.480
Complementary schismogenesis is creation of a split in a complementary way.

00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:00.640
In other words, they go in opposite directions.

00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:02.720
So we have different styles.

00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:09.599
And you think, well, I'll just adjust a little bit and then you'll just adjust a little bit and won't things get better.

00:23:09.839 --> 00:23:18.960
Complimentary schismogenesis is what you do, whatever your style is, drives the person to more extreme versions of the other behavior.

00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:20.640
So here's an example.

00:23:20.960 --> 00:23:21.279
Okay.

00:23:21.599 --> 00:23:22.960
This is actually a real one.

00:23:23.119 --> 00:23:25.680
Uh so a guy was uh, this was a work situation.

00:23:25.839 --> 00:23:29.519
He was asking a particular woman if she wanted to have lunch with him, and she didn't.

00:23:29.599 --> 00:23:32.160
So she said, No, I'm kind of busy this week.

00:23:32.319 --> 00:23:35.599
And then later he asks, No, I'd really like to have lunch with you.

00:23:35.759 --> 00:23:38.240
And she said, You know, I'm really not feeling very well.

00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:41.839
And she gets more indirect.

00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:47.200
And finally he says, Would you please tell me, is it that you don't want to have lunch with me?

00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:57.039
I should stop asking, or is it really the case that you're so he's trying to get more direct to get her to tell him what she really thinks?

00:23:57.279 --> 00:24:04.319
That makes her practically aphasic, because there's no way she is going to look this man in the face and say, I don't want to have lunch with you.

00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:06.799
So she starts double talking to the person.

00:24:06.880 --> 00:24:11.519
So each one was driven to more extreme versions of the opposing behavior.

00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:14.640
Can can that happen in family relationships, do you think?

00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:16.400
Or how does it happen in family relationships?

00:24:16.640 --> 00:24:18.079
Um, time of style is different.

00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:18.799
It can happen.

00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:22.480
You know, the book I just finished, I sent the first draft off to my publisher.

00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:26.160
Oh, the one you were working on when we were going to do the interview and you needed to finish.

00:24:26.319 --> 00:24:26.720
Okay, yeah.

00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:27.759
Apologies.

00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:29.759
Oh, I want to get into apologies.

00:24:29.920 --> 00:24:30.240
Okay.

00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:34.559
So you want an apology from somebody and they're not giving it.

00:24:34.960 --> 00:24:38.720
So you apologize to give them a good example.

00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:41.039
And they say, Yeah, you really shouldn't do that again.

00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:41.839
That's really bad.

00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:46.000
So you've made it worse rather than making it made it better.

00:24:46.400 --> 00:24:48.079
I apologize, you'll get a good idea.

00:24:48.319 --> 00:24:50.160
This is actually again true.

00:24:50.319 --> 00:24:54.720
Someone's had lunch with a guy, and he was just the whole time talking about himself.

00:24:54.880 --> 00:24:56.799
By the end, she said, Why are you telling me all this?

00:24:56.880 --> 00:24:58.319
And he said, I want to get to know you.

00:24:58.480 --> 00:25:06.480
So it sounds, but his idea of how to get to know you is I talk about myself and you talk about you, but you're not doing your part.

00:25:06.559 --> 00:25:07.519
So I tell more.

00:25:07.759 --> 00:25:11.759
And then you're talking so much that I really clam up and talk more.

00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:15.279
So what each one is doing is driving the other to a more extreme.

00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:16.640
That makes perfect sense.

00:25:16.880 --> 00:25:22.559
Let me give you this example of a student who compared her mother and her father and two different ones.

00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:28.079
My students observe their own behavior, and you know, so this is the one who really preferred her mother.

00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:28.720
She was sick.

00:25:28.880 --> 00:25:31.519
Normally she would talk to her mother, but this time her mother wasn't home.

00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:32.640
She talked to her father.

00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:34.319
Oh, Daddy, I feel terrible.

00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:35.680
You know, I have a sore throat.

00:25:35.839 --> 00:25:38.400
And uh and he said, Well, take Tylenol.

00:25:38.559 --> 00:25:41.200
She said, Well, I did, but it really didn't help.

00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:43.200
Uh well, go to the health center.

00:25:43.359 --> 00:25:45.920
There, everybody's sick, and I couldn't get an appointment.

00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:48.640
And he says, Well, can't help you then.

00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:49.680
This is real.

00:25:50.160 --> 00:25:53.279
And she wished her mother who would have said, Oh, I'm so sorry.

00:25:53.440 --> 00:25:56.079
I wish I was there to make you a cup of tea.

00:25:56.160 --> 00:25:58.400
You know, another one prefers the mother.

00:25:58.559 --> 00:26:00.799
Okay, so she w breaks up with her boyfriend.

00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:04.880
She feels really bad about it, and she tells both her parents and gets their advice.

00:26:05.119 --> 00:26:06.480
Her father never brings it up again.

00:26:06.559 --> 00:26:08.880
Every time she talks to her mother, How are you doing?

00:26:09.039 --> 00:26:10.079
How's he doing?

00:26:10.240 --> 00:26:11.279
Have you heard from him?

00:26:11.519 --> 00:26:12.559
Have you met anybody?

00:26:12.799 --> 00:26:13.920
Has he met anybody?

00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:16.799
Finally, she asks, Yeah, mom, please stop bringing it up.

00:26:16.880 --> 00:26:18.559
Uh, it it makes it harder.

00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:20.160
So then her mother feels bad.

00:26:20.319 --> 00:26:23.119
Then she feels bad that she made her mother feel bad.

00:26:23.359 --> 00:26:25.039
So this is also true.

00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:33.839
This paradox that every conversation we have to ask ourselves, are you showing interest or are you intrusive?

00:26:34.480 --> 00:26:37.119
Are you showing interest or are you intrusive?

00:26:37.359 --> 00:26:43.279
So it's really our job to examine that or talk openly about it to our adult child.

00:26:43.519 --> 00:26:45.680
Like, do I sound intrusive when I say this?

00:26:45.839 --> 00:26:46.880
If I do, let me know.

00:26:47.119 --> 00:26:47.279
Right.

00:26:47.440 --> 00:26:49.759
Or or even when you're not saying it.

00:26:50.240 --> 00:26:50.640
Right.

00:26:50.799 --> 00:26:56.799
Let's here's this issue, and I don't know which direction I go in, but now it's not happening right now.

00:26:56.960 --> 00:27:01.920
So if you tell me your experience with me, do I not ask enough?

00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:02.720
Yeah.

00:27:02.960 --> 00:27:06.559
So you also talk about balancing closeness and independence.

00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:14.240
And mothers and daughters particularly wrestle with wanting intimacy but independence, particularly the daughters, I think, want the independence.

00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:16.000
The mothers want the intimacy.

00:27:16.319 --> 00:27:17.920
And the daughters deserve the independence.

00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:21.839
As you said, I'm 55 years older and my mother still doesn't think I can match my socks.

00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:23.279
How do they reach that balance?

00:27:23.359 --> 00:27:25.200
Are do you have any suggestions?

00:27:25.680 --> 00:27:28.079
Well, I think talking about it is definitely important.

00:27:28.559 --> 00:27:31.759
Stepping back and trying to see it from the other's point of view.

00:27:31.839 --> 00:27:34.960
Maybe that's the most important thing you can do.

00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:37.519
Uh, we want to think we're a good person.

00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:42.240
Well, 99% of the time, I really think you are, and you mean well.

00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:42.960
I really do.

00:27:43.279 --> 00:27:43.920
And I do too.

00:27:44.240 --> 00:27:47.599
I often say mine is a rhetoric of good intentions.

00:27:48.160 --> 00:27:50.480
I love that a rhetoric of good intentions.

00:27:51.200 --> 00:27:52.000
I'm gonna save that.

00:27:52.079 --> 00:27:54.480
I'm a rhetoric of good intentions that don't always work.

00:27:54.880 --> 00:27:58.720
And sometimes people are frustrated, you know, sometimes people have bad intentions.

00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:01.839
All right, so you talk about this big three hair, clothes, and weight.

00:28:01.920 --> 00:28:08.480
And I'm gonna say your book was written long enough ago that I think some of that has yes, but no.

00:28:08.640 --> 00:28:11.839
I think mothers are a little more accepting the way their daughters are looking.

00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:16.960
I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but other things come up, whether it be their lifestyle or their values.

00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:18.880
Um, people are taking so many different paths.

00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:20.240
You know, that's movement.

00:28:20.400 --> 00:28:23.279
That's how they raise their children is becoming really important.

00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:27.039
Whatever it is, it's gonna be different from what it what it was.

00:28:27.279 --> 00:28:33.839
What the hair, the weight, the clothes, the raising children, the living conditions, the career choices.

00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:45.440
Do you think social media has intensified this and made mothers, probably because they're more engaged in social media than the fathers, like, oh, my child will never be like Sally on, you know, whatever.

00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:48.640
Do you think there's some harm in social media with these relationships?

00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:52.720
Well, social media brings both harm and good on every level.

00:28:52.799 --> 00:28:54.319
Everything good is part harm.

00:28:54.480 --> 00:29:07.920
Um, when I talk to mothers, daughters, as well as sisters, women's relationships in general, friends, when they are hurt, when mothers were hurt, more often than not, it was not being included in something and not being invited to something.

00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:12.480
And that is an extremely common way of being hurt for women.

00:29:12.640 --> 00:29:13.920
There's reality behind it.

00:29:14.079 --> 00:29:16.559
When girls get mad at a girl, they lock her out.

00:29:16.720 --> 00:29:17.759
Boys don't do that.

00:29:17.920 --> 00:29:21.519
They might treat him badly, but they don't lock him out.

00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:25.680
And of course, in junior high, it gets quite really, really, really hard.

00:29:26.319 --> 00:29:31.279
Social media aggravates that because you see what everybody's doing and you're not there.

00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:35.119
You see all the things that were going on that you weren't invited to.

00:29:35.279 --> 00:29:36.960
So I think that makes it worse.

00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:38.319
That makes it worse.

00:29:38.559 --> 00:29:43.200
How about you describe family conversations as a dance between connection and control?

00:29:43.440 --> 00:29:44.880
What does that mean exactly?

00:29:45.200 --> 00:29:46.960
I don't think I say dance.

00:29:47.279 --> 00:29:49.519
Okay, maybe I added the word in dance.

00:29:49.759 --> 00:29:50.480
Sorry.

00:29:51.039 --> 00:29:53.279
All right, between connection and control.

00:29:54.880 --> 00:29:56.559
Um, I like the way it sounded.

00:29:56.640 --> 00:29:57.279
How about that?

00:29:57.519 --> 00:29:59.519
Yeah, the connection and control.

00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:03.200
Is is like the criticism and caring.

00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:04.160
You know, okay.

00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:05.440
All the C's.

00:30:05.920 --> 00:30:07.119
Want to be connected to each other.

00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:08.319
It's like the independence.

00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:11.680
We want to be connected, but we also want to be free and independent.

00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:14.160
Woman said about her daughter.

00:30:14.319 --> 00:30:19.759
You know, I understand she's getting older and she wants to break the bonds.

00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:22.160
And that's the bonds of bondage.

00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:24.480
But say that again.

00:30:24.640 --> 00:30:25.599
She wants to break the bond.

00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:26.799
Oh, bondage.

00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:27.039
Right.

00:30:27.200 --> 00:30:27.359
Okay.

00:30:27.519 --> 00:30:28.160
That's no control.

00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:30.640
That it doesn't become bondage.

00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:31.759
Bondage.

00:30:32.720 --> 00:30:39.039
Boy, there's a happy that is a dance, and there's a very thin wire you're walking on between bond and bondage.

00:30:39.279 --> 00:30:39.519
Yeah.

00:30:39.680 --> 00:30:49.599
And again, what seems like the most perfect connection to one person is going to seem way overconnected to another and rejection to another.

00:30:49.759 --> 00:30:51.680
There's a lot of cultural difference here.

00:30:51.839 --> 00:30:57.759
There's cultures where women and men, by the way, they'll be holding hands all the time and hugging one.

00:30:58.079 --> 00:30:58.480
I've seen that.

00:30:58.799 --> 00:31:03.119
And other cultures where they never touch their kid at all.

00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:15.200
I really want to talk about family roles because I loved what you talked about with your sisters and this thing we carry on from childhood, eldest, peacemaker, rebel, and how it complicates communication as we come adults' roles.

00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:18.240
The oldest sister is the toughest role.

00:31:19.039 --> 00:31:19.680
It really is.

00:31:19.839 --> 00:31:20.240
It really is.

00:31:20.319 --> 00:31:21.759
I'm the youngest of three.

00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:24.319
And the middle is the best role, I'm going to tell you.

00:31:24.559 --> 00:31:25.599
There are so many different middles.

00:31:25.920 --> 00:31:27.359
Well, I'm talking about three, I guess.

00:31:27.440 --> 00:31:29.839
They for sort of forget about you and you can do your own thing.

00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:30.319
Yeah.

00:31:30.400 --> 00:31:33.119
Well, there's six years between my oldest and the next.

00:31:33.599 --> 00:31:34.079
Oh, okay.

00:31:34.240 --> 00:31:36.240
Like that's a oldest sister.

00:31:36.559 --> 00:31:36.799
You do.

00:31:36.880 --> 00:31:36.960
Yeah.

00:31:37.279 --> 00:31:37.839
They're both oldest.

00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:38.480
Right.

00:31:38.880 --> 00:31:39.119
Right.

00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:39.440
Okay.

00:31:39.519 --> 00:31:40.079
So go ahead.

00:31:40.319 --> 00:31:47.279
But oldest sisters are put in the often, not always often, put in the position of watching out for the young ones, taking care of them.

00:31:47.440 --> 00:31:48.640
You know, you watch them.

00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:52.400
My my mother definitely did that with my oldest sister.

00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:55.440
She calls herself a parentified child.

00:31:56.160 --> 00:31:57.920
She was put in that position, you know.

00:31:58.079 --> 00:31:59.039
I can't handle them.

00:31:59.119 --> 00:32:00.079
You take them.

00:32:00.319 --> 00:32:02.000
And she was great with us.

00:32:02.240 --> 00:32:02.960
Especially you.

00:32:03.039 --> 00:32:04.160
You were the rebel.

00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:08.960
Yeah, well, as a teenager, I drove my mother nearly into the grave.

00:32:09.279 --> 00:32:11.440
I think you drove her into the grave as a young adult.

00:32:11.519 --> 00:32:11.759
Sorry.

00:32:13.519 --> 00:32:14.559
Based on what I heard.

00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:16.000
That's all I can say.

00:32:16.480 --> 00:32:19.200
No, it was the and well, this is an interesting thing too.

00:32:19.359 --> 00:32:20.799
I'm a child of the 60s.

00:32:20.960 --> 00:32:23.039
My sister's a child of the 50s.

00:32:23.359 --> 00:32:24.319
Oh, that's a big change.

00:32:25.039 --> 00:32:25.680
Big difference.

00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:26.240
Yeah.

00:32:26.400 --> 00:32:26.640
Yeah.

00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:30.480
We're born into the same family, but it's a different family when each of us is born.

00:32:30.799 --> 00:32:32.319
Economic situation is different.

00:32:32.559 --> 00:32:34.480
They're going through in their lives is different.

00:32:34.720 --> 00:32:36.480
And how does that translate into adulthood?

00:32:36.640 --> 00:32:38.720
Well, I want to say one thing about the old okay, sorry.

00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:43.359
And this is a quote from Louisa May Alcara, I'm told.

00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:44.559
Another great woman.

00:32:44.720 --> 00:32:44.880
Yeah.

00:32:45.119 --> 00:32:47.519
The first child is pure poetry.

00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:49.039
All the rest are prose.

00:32:49.279 --> 00:32:50.240
Oh my gosh.

00:32:50.880 --> 00:32:56.240
The kind of attention that the first gets that is really irreplaceable.

00:32:56.480 --> 00:32:57.279
It's overwhelming.

00:32:57.519 --> 00:33:00.480
All the pictures of the first one are too busy for the others.

00:33:00.559 --> 00:33:02.240
But the downside is never resented.

00:33:02.480 --> 00:33:03.440
You know, you're not my mother.

00:33:03.519 --> 00:33:04.720
You take them for granted.

00:33:04.799 --> 00:33:07.119
I've, you know, anecdotes I've heard.

00:33:07.279 --> 00:33:18.480
You just assume the oldest one is going to do all the planning, and you just assume the oldest one is going to pick mom up and take her to church, even though she lives 45 minutes away and I live live 10 minutes away.

00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:20.720
It wasn't me, that was told me by someone else.

00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:21.440
Right, right.

00:33:21.599 --> 00:33:25.119
Do you think sometimes the oldest child thinks that they'll just do a better job?

00:33:25.359 --> 00:33:25.680
Absolutely.

00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:32.559
Like sometimes I think, yeah, sometimes I think it's my problem of thinking, let me take care of it because I'm better at it.

00:33:32.799 --> 00:33:34.720
And and a feeling that it's your job.

00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:36.480
I mean, you don't even think about it.

00:33:36.640 --> 00:33:38.000
Something has to be done.

00:33:38.240 --> 00:33:39.200
I should do it.

00:33:39.359 --> 00:33:45.200
I describe a lot about finding myself with my two sisters, and I become helpless.

00:33:45.519 --> 00:33:50.079
So let's talk about the power of apology, the focus, the impact, the intent.

00:33:50.400 --> 00:33:55.519
Well, yeah, that there's a lot of different ways to consider apologies.

00:33:55.680 --> 00:33:58.160
Many apologies don't have words at all.

00:33:58.400 --> 00:34:07.119
Let me start with the frustration that often women feel that apologies are very important and are more likely to apologize than men.

00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:11.119
Again, not everybody across the board, but tendency.

00:34:11.360 --> 00:34:16.159
Level on which if you apologize, you're kind of putting yourself in a position of weakness.

00:34:16.320 --> 00:34:20.880
And there's a level on which if you apologize, you're acknowledging that you care about the other person.

00:34:21.039 --> 00:34:24.639
And the tendency is for women to focus on that caring side.

00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:28.000
If he won't apologize, he doesn't care that he let me down.

00:34:28.400 --> 00:34:34.559
Tendency among men is okay, I committed a misdemeanor, but you want me to plead guilty to a felony?

00:34:34.639 --> 00:34:35.360
What is the big deal?

00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:37.119
Of course, I didn't do it on purpose.

00:34:37.280 --> 00:34:37.840
I love you.

00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:39.440
I wouldn't do that on purpose.

00:34:39.679 --> 00:34:41.679
So why are you insisting I apologize?

00:34:41.840 --> 00:34:44.480
So those two things uh are always there.

00:34:44.559 --> 00:34:50.000
And like all the conversational style differences I talk about, you can focus on one or the other.

00:34:50.159 --> 00:34:53.760
And if one is focused, focusing on one, the other on the other.

00:34:54.239 --> 00:34:56.880
Can you relate that to parent and adult child?

00:34:57.119 --> 00:35:00.960
Is the parent the first to apologize typically if there was a riff?

00:35:01.199 --> 00:35:07.119
Let me tell you, uh, one of the things that totally surprised me, totally surprised me in writing this book.

00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:13.199
How many people, when I said, You have any stories about apologies, told me about their parents.

00:35:13.519 --> 00:35:14.159
Interesting.

00:35:14.320 --> 00:35:15.920
That the parents apologized or don't.

00:35:16.159 --> 00:35:20.320
Well, it could be my parent apologized and it meant so much to me.

00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:24.159
Especially those were often end of life.

00:35:24.480 --> 00:35:25.760
Oh, interesting.

00:35:26.159 --> 00:35:33.840
Um, you know, my mother did all these, and you don't want to hear all the things that, but real, you know, real things that hurt the kid acronym.

00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:40.800
I wasn't really focusing on it, but before she died, my mother said I shouldn't have done that, and I I'm sorry.

00:35:41.039 --> 00:35:44.159
And it was huge, huge that she cared.

00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:46.559
She cared that it had that effect on me.

00:35:46.719 --> 00:35:51.440
And some of them were wishing a parent would apologize and the parent won't.

00:35:51.679 --> 00:35:56.719
Often those were about bringing a stepfather into the family.

00:35:58.559 --> 00:36:14.400
And then I and it's really sad that it's the end of life because really, if we could all pick ourselves up and realize there are no perfect parents, and uh every kid's going to be in therapy, however hard we tried, and apologize for what it was that we were not able to provide, it might make a huge difference.

00:36:14.719 --> 00:36:14.960
Yes.

00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:18.960
And it's quite astonishing how much it can mean.

00:36:19.119 --> 00:36:20.639
I was just astonished.

00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:30.559
People that I talked to sometimes cried, but those who cried with almost one, only one exception, they cried when they told me that the parent apologized.

00:36:30.800 --> 00:36:35.519
It was that moment rather than all these terrible things that they suffered.

00:36:35.679 --> 00:36:37.599
That they didn't cry about that.

00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:40.639
So I think it's because it's so moving.

00:36:41.039 --> 00:36:43.599
But I think it's again, I think it's about caring.

00:36:43.840 --> 00:36:46.559
You want to know that the parent cares.

00:36:46.800 --> 00:36:50.000
And you think as a parent, your kids should know they care.

00:36:50.159 --> 00:36:50.480
You care.

00:36:50.800 --> 00:36:52.239
And and God you care.

00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:54.320
That's the other side of it.

00:36:54.480 --> 00:36:58.639
From parents, I talked about again, thinking of that book I wrote about mothers and daughters.

00:36:58.800 --> 00:37:04.079
So many women told me the worst thing, worst thing would be to think they weren't a good mother.

00:37:04.320 --> 00:37:10.079
The one woman who had a career as a journalist, you know, she said, people could criticize my journalism.

00:37:10.239 --> 00:37:15.119
That's just why, but if somebody implied I wasn't a good mother, I'd fall apart.

00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:22.559
So in a way, apologizing is admitting that you weren't a good mother in that way.

00:37:22.719 --> 00:37:31.360
And one woman told me how much I meant to her when her mother apologized, and what she said was, and she was assuring her mother that she was a good mother.

00:37:31.599 --> 00:37:39.920
And I think that's what made it possible for her mother to say, yeah, I did that bad thing, but I still was a good mother.

00:37:40.400 --> 00:37:51.519
And I find, and I don't know whether this is true, but in day-to-day relationships, particularly with my spouse, if he gets angry with me about something or points something out, I loved your thing about pulling the recycle out of the garbage.

00:37:51.760 --> 00:37:54.159
I mean, I want to tell you how many times it's recyclable.

00:37:54.400 --> 00:37:58.000
If you just say I'm sorry, everything goes away.

00:37:58.400 --> 00:37:58.639
Yep.

00:37:58.880 --> 00:38:00.000
We're we're the reverse.

00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:01.599
My husband and I are the reverse.

00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:02.400
Oh, really?

00:38:02.719 --> 00:38:06.000
Many of the things I talk about, he isn't your typical guy.

00:38:06.159 --> 00:38:09.119
But this one is he does not like to say he's sorry.

00:38:09.280 --> 00:38:16.880
And I'll tell you two funny ones because you know he's heard me talk about this, and he knows right into saying, I'm sorry for everything.

00:38:17.199 --> 00:38:19.760
And and you said, and I identified with this too.

00:38:19.920 --> 00:38:23.599
My husband does this, something funny, it makes you laugh and it goes away.

00:38:23.760 --> 00:38:28.239
And another one that this probably more recently, I said, Well, why don't you just say you're sorry?

00:38:28.400 --> 00:38:31.039
He said, You know, I can't say sorry the same day.

00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:32.239
And it's true.

00:38:32.559 --> 00:38:34.559
He can say it the next day.

00:38:34.960 --> 00:38:37.280
Yeah, it's you know, it I don't know.

00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:38.800
I just know I want to cut it off.

00:38:38.880 --> 00:38:40.719
So I figure if I say I'm sorry, it's done.

00:38:40.880 --> 00:38:42.000
I don't even have to mean it.

00:38:42.159 --> 00:38:46.719
Well, that's absolutely you mean that you want it to be over.

00:38:46.880 --> 00:38:49.679
You I mean that I want it to be over, right?

00:38:49.840 --> 00:38:50.239
Exactly.

00:38:50.320 --> 00:38:50.559
Exactly.

00:38:50.880 --> 00:38:51.679
This is very revealing.

00:38:51.840 --> 00:39:00.239
I was actually visiting my sister and her husband, and he came home late and he was supposed to help, but he said, Well, I was there, so he didn't need to help.

00:39:00.320 --> 00:39:02.159
And they they were going back and forth.

00:39:02.320 --> 00:39:05.679
And he at one point said, Well, I just don't know what to say.

00:39:06.239 --> 00:39:10.559
And I sort of mouthed, apologize, he didn't pick it up.

00:39:10.639 --> 00:39:13.119
So I whispered, apologize, he didn't pick it up.

00:39:13.280 --> 00:39:16.639
So I went over and I belted, apologize.

00:39:16.960 --> 00:39:21.280
And my sister said, Yeah, if you'd apologize, I'd forget it.

00:39:21.760 --> 00:39:24.800
But what he said was that never occurred to me.

00:39:25.440 --> 00:39:27.360
To me, that was so revealing.

00:39:27.599 --> 00:39:32.079
It's not like he was resisting it, it just wasn't on his radar screen.

00:39:32.239 --> 00:39:35.599
And I think part of that is it's not going to change anything.

00:39:36.320 --> 00:39:41.599
Words mean more often, not always, often to women than to men.

00:39:41.840 --> 00:39:44.320
Actions, men focus more on.

00:39:44.559 --> 00:39:49.440
Your friend is the one you do everything with, your best friend is the one you tell everything to.

00:39:49.679 --> 00:39:53.679
Well, I could talk to you for hours because I just adore you, but I have to wrap this up.

00:39:53.840 --> 00:39:57.840
We're going way over the time I I allotted, and I probably promised you.

00:39:58.000 --> 00:40:00.880
So, as I told you in advance, I need two takeaways.

00:40:01.039 --> 00:40:03.840
And remember, this is about parents and adult children.

00:40:03.920 --> 00:40:06.000
It doesn't have to be mothers-daughters, but it could be.

00:40:06.159 --> 00:40:08.960
What are two things you hope people take away from this conversation?

00:40:09.199 --> 00:40:15.360
Well, maybe the biggest one is that that's the big takeaway, and maybe one other that we didn't talk about, but is still important.

00:40:15.679 --> 00:40:16.000
Okay.

00:40:16.719 --> 00:40:24.559
If something is irritating you, just stop for a second and ask could that person be responding to something you said or did?

00:40:25.039 --> 00:40:33.199
We tend to think of ourselves as the prime mover and then and the other person as a prime mover.

00:40:33.519 --> 00:40:35.039
So you did this.

00:40:35.199 --> 00:40:38.639
Yeah, but maybe you did it because of something I did or said.

00:40:39.599 --> 00:40:41.679
I think that's 100% true.

00:40:41.760 --> 00:40:44.159
And I think many of us don't stop to think that.

00:40:44.320 --> 00:40:46.559
I always say to people, it takes two to tango.

00:40:46.800 --> 00:40:46.960
Yeah.

00:40:47.039 --> 00:40:52.239
Um, actually, I said we think we think of ourselves as reacting and the other person as the prime mover.

00:40:52.320 --> 00:40:54.400
I missed Right, right, right.

00:40:54.559 --> 00:40:55.119
Very good.

00:40:55.280 --> 00:40:56.320
Well, thank you so much.

00:40:56.400 --> 00:40:57.440
I appreciate this time.

00:40:57.519 --> 00:40:59.440
I really look forward to your book on apology.

00:40:59.519 --> 00:41:00.719
When do you think that's going to come out?

00:41:00.960 --> 00:41:05.840
Well, I haven't got yet gotten the uh comments from my editor, so Oh, okay.

00:41:05.920 --> 00:41:06.559
So we have a while.

00:41:06.800 --> 00:41:09.519
Yeah, we'll have to see how long it takes me to make whatever changes.

00:41:09.840 --> 00:41:10.639
Well, thank you again so much.

00:41:11.039 --> 00:41:11.440
My pleasure.

00:41:11.760 --> 00:41:12.159
Great.

00:41:12.320 --> 00:41:13.599
Well, that's a wrap.

00:41:13.840 --> 00:41:15.199
This conversation with Dr.

00:41:15.360 --> 00:41:16.960
Tannin was such a gift.

00:41:17.119 --> 00:41:20.639
She's certainly an academic, and you can hear it in everything she says.

00:41:20.880 --> 00:41:27.599
She showed us how our care towards our adult children can also sound like criticism to them.

00:41:27.760 --> 00:41:36.239
It really seems like talking to them about this and sharing this episode, maybe, can help us both get on the same path.

00:41:36.480 --> 00:41:44.239
You know, just a little thing like you're wearing that, or I like the way your dress looks, they can take as criticism.

00:41:44.400 --> 00:41:55.440
But she's given us hope that becoming more aware of these messages and listening differently and looking at ourselves will go more towards connection instead of conflicts.

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I thank her so much for joining us, and I know our listeners will carry these ideas into their own families with their adult children and hopefully find a little more understanding and maybe even a little more peace in the process.

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So thanks, listeners, for listening.

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Thank you, Connie Goron Fisher, our audio engineer, for making this sound better than we did it when we recorded it.

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We'll look forward to reading Dr.

00:42:18.400 --> 00:42:20.079
Tannin's book on apology.

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And please log on to our website, biteyourtonguepodcast.com, or email us at biteyourtonguepodcast at gmail.com.

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Give us a good review, donate as little as five dollars, but let us know you're out there and let us know you're supporting us.

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And remember, particularly after this conversation, sometimes you just have to bite your tongue.