Aug. 22, 2025

When They are Little, They Sit on your Lap: When They are Big, they Sit on Your Heart

When They are Little, They Sit on your Lap: When They are Big, they Sit on Your Heart

Send us a text This is one funny episode. Today we interview Susan Engel, a professor of psychology at Williams College and the author of the New York Times Article: When They're Grown, The Real Pain Begins. Joining Denise as co-host is a dear friend Val Haller. Val is the mother of four boys, very similar to the ages of Susan's boys when she wrote this article, so she is our perfect co-host. Susan takes us through her journey when she wrote the a...

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Season 6

Send us a text

This is one funny episode.
 
 Today we interview Susan Engel, a professor of psychology at Williams College and the author of the New York Times Article:  When They're Grown, The Real Pain Begins.   
 
Joining Denise as co-host is a dear friend Val Haller.  Val is the mother of four boys, very similar to the ages of Susan's boys when she wrote this article, so she is our perfect co-host.

Susan takes us through her journey when she wrote the article in 2012 and her three boys were 28, 25 and 19.  Today, ten years later,  she is a grandmother with two of these three boys married and living right next door.  Can you imagine?Some things we talk about:

  • Reconceptualizing the parent-adult child relationship as a relationship rather than a job that can be perfected
  • The value of passing on positive comments between family members while avoiding sharing criticisms
  • Finding comfort in knowing your adult children continue to grow, develop resilience, and build support networks beyond you
  • The importance of humility and acknowledging your own parenting mistakes
    Recognizing when to simply listen rather than trying to fix your adult child's problems

About Val Haller - our co-host:
Val lives in Chicago and is passionate about music.  She is the founder/CEO of the music website Valslist.com. She launched it about 10 years ago (when her nest was empty) and it is the first music site specifically created to help busy adults keep up with new music.  Check it out.

Huge thank you to Connie Gorant Fisher, our audio engineer.
Send all ideas to biteyourtonguepodcast@gmail.com. Remeber to follow us on Facebook and Instagram. Support US!  Visit our website at biteyourtonguepodcast.com and select SUPPORT US.  You can buy a "virtual" cup of coffee.

 



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00:00 - Passing On Good Things, Not Bad

01:45 - Introduction to Dr. Susan Engel

05:08 - Why Adult Children Break Our Hearts

09:38 - Parental Roles and Setting Boundaries

10:52 - [Ad] The Education News Comedy Quiz -- Some of the Above

11:40 - (Cont.) Parental Roles and Setting Boundaries

17:06 - Susan's Journey Since Her Article

23:47 - Navigating Relationships with In-Laws

35:19 - Handling Sibling Relationships

44:58 - Living Next Door to Adult Children

50:10 - Key Takeaways: Relationships Not Jobs

WEBVTT

00:00:05.508 --> 00:00:12.804
There's one little piece that I've learned over the years that helps me, which is one thing you can do is pass on good things.

00:00:12.804 --> 00:00:24.021
So when one of my kids appreciates or says something wonderful about the other, I'm happy to pass that on, because that can only be good, and they may not be expressing those things to each other.

00:00:24.021 --> 00:00:35.938
How can it ever hurt to hear that someone in your family loved you or appreciated something you did or felt loved by you and sometimes you can add a little sugar to things by doing that.

00:00:35.938 --> 00:00:36.920
It can only be good.

00:00:36.920 --> 00:00:41.090
The one thing that you never should do is pass on bad things.

00:00:41.090 --> 00:00:44.243
I just don't see how that ever is good.

00:00:44.243 --> 00:00:52.664
And when your kids are grown, I mean you guys are the ones that were emphasizing the power of stepping back and stepping aside and creating some distance.

00:00:52.664 --> 00:00:57.040
And in this case, this is one place where I would wholeheartedly agree with you.

00:00:57.040 --> 00:01:01.853
They have to get good at working out their relationships with one another.

00:01:01.853 --> 00:01:06.871
So, unless you're saying something that makes them feel better about each other, say nothing.

00:01:17.141 --> 00:01:18.927
Hello everyone, I'm Denise Gorin.

00:01:18.927 --> 00:01:21.549
Welcome to Bite your Tongue, the podcast.

00:01:21.549 --> 00:01:34.388
Thanks for joining us as we speak with experts, authors, parents and even young adults to explore the transition from parenting our young children to building healthy relationships with our now adults.

00:01:34.388 --> 00:01:41.709
Hopefully we'll grow together, learn about ourselves, our young adults and, of course, when to bite our tongues.

00:01:41.709 --> 00:01:45.387
We are so happy you're with us, so let's get started.

00:01:45.387 --> 00:01:53.888
Welcome to another episode of Bite your Tongue, the podcast.

00:01:54.569 --> 00:02:05.009
So our dear talented audio engineer, connie Fisher, was strolling through the internet and came across this wonderful New York Times story by Williams College psychologist, susan Engel.

00:02:05.009 --> 00:02:10.307
The title just drew her in when they're grown, the real pain begins.

00:02:10.307 --> 00:02:14.883
We decided to reach out and see if, by chance, susan would chat with us.

00:02:14.883 --> 00:02:20.962
She was actually interviewed about this story by Savannah Guthrie on the Today Show in 2012.

00:02:20.962 --> 00:02:26.050
Her then three young adult boys were 28, 25, and 19.

00:02:26.050 --> 00:02:29.776
Now they're 38, 35, and 29.

00:02:29.776 --> 00:02:37.123
We were wondering how has this changed for Susan, what her journey's been, and we'd like to catch up with her now.

00:02:37.123 --> 00:02:59.965
The article's great and we'll talk about parts of it as we go through this episode, but I wanted first to share one thing Susan's family friend and neighbor, cora Stevens, said to Susan when she first brought her firstborn son home at three weeks old, cora bounced Jacob on her knee and turned to Susan and said when they're little, they sit on your lap.

00:02:59.965 --> 00:03:02.391
When they're big, they sit on your heart.

00:03:02.391 --> 00:03:04.783
So what do you think listeners, do we agree?

00:03:05.504 --> 00:03:09.954
Anyway, ellen couldn't be with me today, so I asked a good friend, val Haller, to co-host with me.

00:03:09.954 --> 00:03:13.250
Val lives in Chicago and we've been friends since middle school.

00:03:13.250 --> 00:03:14.665
We both grew up in Ohio.

00:03:14.665 --> 00:03:33.043
I asked Val to join me because she has four boys and they are just about the same age as Susan's boys when she wrote the story and you should know, while raising children, val was my go-to mother for parenting questions.

00:03:33.043 --> 00:03:34.986
After raising her boys, val developed her passion for music into a business.

00:03:34.986 --> 00:03:39.883
She launched ValsListcom and with her remarkable ear she finds great new music for boomers.

00:03:39.883 --> 00:03:42.189
I have to say her playlists are amazing.

00:03:42.189 --> 00:03:46.401
I play them all the time, especially her engaging dinner party playlist.

00:03:46.401 --> 00:03:49.950
Every time I play it my friends ask me where'd you get that playlist?

00:03:49.950 --> 00:03:55.692
But anyway, we'll talk about that later, but I had to mention it because I think listeners will love her site.

00:03:55.692 --> 00:03:57.063
So welcome Val.

00:03:57.063 --> 00:03:58.469
I'm so glad to have you.

00:03:58.469 --> 00:04:02.022
Why don't you introduce yourself and then introduce Susan, and we'll get started.

00:04:02.865 --> 00:04:06.384
Hi, denise, thank you so much for inviting me to join the conversation today.

00:04:06.384 --> 00:04:22.552
I mean, heaven knows, we've spent millions of hours talking about parenting together over the years, and thanks for mentioning my music business, but my first identity is being a parent and I just want to say I'm truly honored to be here because I love your podcast so much.

00:04:22.552 --> 00:04:24.185
I'm rather obsessed with it.

00:04:24.185 --> 00:04:29.370
You just bring such good quality content to us and this should have been invented a long time ago, denise.

00:04:29.370 --> 00:04:51.805
But it's a great resource for those of us who have grown up kids, because we think the hard work is done because raising little ones is hard work and just when we sit back and relax and try to just enjoy the fruits of our labor and say they're launched and now I can relax, then the big kid phone calls start coming with bigger crises and bigger heartbreak, and that's when our hearts take over.

00:04:51.805 --> 00:04:55.192
But that's not the best tool to use in this approach.

00:04:55.192 --> 00:04:59.189
So it's such an important topic and, susan, I'm so happy to meet you.

00:04:59.189 --> 00:05:00.680
I know I'm going to learn a ton today.

00:05:00.680 --> 00:05:02.184
Now let's get started.

00:05:04.889 --> 00:05:08.033
I am so excited to introduce our guest, dr Susan Engel.

00:05:08.033 --> 00:05:14.242
Susan is a senior lecturer in psychology, founding director of the program in teaching at Williams College.

00:05:14.242 --> 00:05:23.603
She currently serves as the Williams College Gardeno Scholar, a position that creates and promotes opportunities for students to stretch beyond what they are familiar with.

00:05:23.603 --> 00:05:33.071
She is also one of the founders of an experimental school in New York State, where she served as educational advisor for 18 years, and she has authored numerous books.

00:05:33.071 --> 00:05:37.685
But today we are talking to her about her three sons, jake, will and Sam.

00:05:37.685 --> 00:05:43.930
We're anxious to learn about how things have changed since she wrote her attention-grabbing article in 2012.

00:05:43.930 --> 00:05:45.237
Welcome, susan.

00:05:45.237 --> 00:05:50.050
Please feel free to tell us anything else about yourself we've missed and again, thank you for joining us.

00:05:50.680 --> 00:05:51.341
Hi, thank you.

00:05:51.341 --> 00:05:54.750
Thank you so much for that lovely introduction.

00:05:54.750 --> 00:05:55.791
What did you miss?

00:05:55.791 --> 00:06:00.670
Well, one slight correction I'm actually done with my role as the Gaudino Scholar.

00:06:00.670 --> 00:06:06.069
It's a three-year role and I passed it on to someone else a while ago.

00:06:06.069 --> 00:06:08.966
Well, what can I tell you that you missed?

00:06:08.966 --> 00:06:12.201
You couldn't possibly have known this, but I have two very small grandchildren.

00:06:12.723 --> 00:06:14.687
That was going to be one of my first questions.

00:06:14.687 --> 00:06:17.483
So, in this time, do you have any grandchildren?

00:06:17.483 --> 00:06:19.809
I was going to ask that at the very top of the hour.

00:06:19.809 --> 00:06:20.771
Well, there you go.

00:06:20.771 --> 00:06:22.985
So that's wonderful, and do they live near?

00:06:23.024 --> 00:06:23.505
you at all.

00:06:23.505 --> 00:06:24.689
Oh boy, oh boy.

00:06:24.689 --> 00:06:25.331
Do they ever?

00:06:25.331 --> 00:06:27.947
They live right next door to me, oh my gosh.

00:06:28.168 --> 00:06:28.930
Oh, that's not fair.

00:06:28.939 --> 00:06:33.470
So two of my three sons live right next door and for the moment they actually live in the same house.

00:06:33.470 --> 00:06:47.468
It used to be my mother-in-law's house when she was alive and their wives lived there with them, and about two and a half years ago they each had a little baby.

00:06:47.468 --> 00:06:49.396
So two little kids who are cousins live right next door to me.

00:06:50.261 --> 00:06:54.348
Okay, Well this is too good to be true, too good to be true.

00:06:54.348 --> 00:07:00.447
Let's talk about the difficulties of raising adult children, not the what do I want to say?

00:07:00.447 --> 00:07:02.492
The fairy tale that you're living right now.

00:07:02.492 --> 00:07:09.290
Anyway, so you wrote this article in 2013 and I went through all of the comments.

00:07:09.290 --> 00:07:15.829
I was just reading them, like the comments are like a book in itself and I know this article has gotten so much attention.

00:07:15.829 --> 00:07:25.194
You know, some of the comments are very painful and some of them just say listen, your job is let go love them, leave them that sort of thing.

00:07:25.194 --> 00:07:27.567
Why do you think it got so much attention?

00:07:28.740 --> 00:08:02.483
Well, I asked myself that a lot after the piece came out, because I was totally flabbergasted by the volume and intensity of people's responses and I should say that I still get emails about it regularly and I think the answer is because so many parents struggle so much as their kids grow up to figure out what their role is, to figure out how to manage their own feelings, to figure out how to navigate the world of adult children, and I think there has been very little written or published about this.

00:08:02.483 --> 00:08:05.211
It's a reason why I think your podcast is such a great idea.

00:08:05.819 --> 00:08:19.153
When I was experiencing the difficulties I described in that piece, I felt totally alone and my sense which was oddly blind of me was that every friend I had was having smooth sailing.

00:08:19.153 --> 00:08:24.024
It's worth getting into graduate school, getting jobs, finding a life mate.

00:08:24.024 --> 00:08:28.507
Kids were getting into graduate school, getting jobs, finding a life mate, going off and setting up their wonderful independent life.

00:08:28.507 --> 00:08:43.522
And I thought I was the only one whose kids were struggling and the only one who felt kind of punched in the stomach by the unexpected aspects of the experience, because I had already been a mom.

00:08:43.522 --> 00:08:51.860
Obviously, by definition, I had already been a mom for 20 something years, so it was just totally new to me, and it never occurred to me that others were going through the same thing.

00:08:51.860 --> 00:09:00.409
When I began to get the responses, I realized that lots I would say almost everybody goes through it, and they just don't know that everybody else is doing that too.

00:09:00.409 --> 00:09:01.681
They think they're alone.

00:09:02.261 --> 00:09:02.883
That's a great.

00:09:02.883 --> 00:09:04.625
Yeah, I have have one question.

00:09:04.644 --> 00:09:05.326
Okay, go ahead Val.

00:09:05.907 --> 00:09:09.211
I think what happens too is our role changes.

00:09:09.211 --> 00:09:29.940
But we weren't warned about that, you know, we weren't warned that at some point, when they become adults, our whole approach probably needs to shift and we transfer from being fixers, where we either do it for them or show them how to do it, to something really different, like we might just listen more.

00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:31.986
I think it's true, but I'm not sure.

00:09:31.986 --> 00:09:33.471
I'll just speak for myself here.

00:09:33.471 --> 00:09:35.398
Oh, and a few others.

00:09:35.398 --> 00:09:37.403
I'll give you an example.

00:09:37.403 --> 00:09:40.072
That warning wouldn't have helped me.

00:09:40.072 --> 00:09:42.538
Yeah, so my mom is 97.

00:09:42.639 --> 00:09:58.412
And this morning I was telling her about the fact that I was going to be doing this podcast and she was reminding me that about 30 years ago so when I was in my 30s my father, who's now dead, and they were divorced, so she was sort of speaking at a distance.

00:09:58.412 --> 00:10:03.155
She said remember when your dad wanted to write a book about parenting grown upup kids?

00:10:03.155 --> 00:10:08.748
And I do remember that he said that he wasn't a writer, so I made fun of him.

00:10:08.748 --> 00:10:12.743
When she said this, I said well, he wasn't a writer, so how would he have done that?

00:10:12.743 --> 00:10:19.304
My point is that I do remember him bringing that up, and I think he said it to me as an indirect way to say I'm struggling with how to be your dad now that you're a grown-up.

00:10:19.325 --> 00:10:22.932
I don't think I heard that for what it was, and so I'm struggling with how to be your dad now that you're grown up.

00:10:22.932 --> 00:10:34.725
I don't think I heard that for what it was, and so I'm not sure that you can warn people, because it's very hard to imagine that before you've gone through it.

00:10:34.725 --> 00:10:39.091
I think it might be something that you have to begin to go through.

00:10:39.091 --> 00:10:41.046
I mean, maybe I'm wrong about this.

00:10:41.046 --> 00:10:46.722
Maybe if we heard people talk about it more when we were younger we'd be more ready for it.

00:10:46.722 --> 00:10:52.447
But I know that people warned me of all kinds of things before I had my first child and I paid no attention.

00:10:53.070 --> 00:10:57.427
Well, don't you think we all think we're going to do it better and we all think we're going to?

00:10:57.427 --> 00:10:58.152
You know we're going to.

00:10:58.152 --> 00:10:58.975
That's not true.

00:10:58.975 --> 00:11:02.261
We're going to handle it better, even when we have our children as babies.

00:11:02.261 --> 00:11:08.504
We think we're going to do a better job than our parents did and in the end we have all the same struggles that our parents had.

00:11:08.504 --> 00:11:14.948
It's interesting that you brought up the generational thing, because I wondered whether some of this is generational.

00:11:14.948 --> 00:11:16.590
Like, did our parents have this sort of thing?

00:11:16.590 --> 00:11:31.447
We're so much more connected to our kids, even when they're further away, so it's harder to disconnect.

00:11:31.447 --> 00:11:33.908
Do you think there's any truth in that right now?

00:11:34.539 --> 00:11:36.447
You know, I don't know about that.

00:11:36.447 --> 00:11:38.539
I'm going to give a complicated answer.

00:11:38.539 --> 00:11:44.572
First of all, only some people historically were separated from their kids.

00:11:44.572 --> 00:11:51.120
After all, in most parts of the world people live very close to the other members of their family and for most of history that's been true.

00:11:51.120 --> 00:12:03.947
So the idea of the grown up far away, separate kid is sort of a modern Western middle class myth, I think.

00:12:03.947 --> 00:12:09.634
And honestly, even before there was texting there were telephones.

00:12:09.634 --> 00:12:26.477
I come from a family that was very close and my whole life, I mean, I remember when I was in college and I was living with my boyfriend already who's now my husband I could tell you what every single person in my complicated, spread apart family was reading.

00:12:26.719 --> 00:12:26.979
Oh my.

00:12:27.059 --> 00:12:28.505
God, my parents were divorced.

00:12:28.505 --> 00:12:29.765
I had three siblings.

00:12:29.765 --> 00:12:36.350
I always knew what novel everybody else was reading, so that's because we were very in touch and involved with each other.

00:12:36.350 --> 00:12:38.304
So I don't know.

00:12:38.304 --> 00:12:51.614
I think that and the reason I bring that up is one thing that you've mentioned that I just don't even accept is the idea that somehow you should step away when your kids are grown up.

00:12:51.614 --> 00:13:01.192
I don't know why that's a good thing People need to be close to each other and I don't see why it's better to be close to somebody else than someone in your family.

00:13:01.900 --> 00:13:04.549
Susan, I have one quick question about social media.

00:13:04.549 --> 00:13:08.150
Yeah, my question's a little bit different about that.

00:13:08.150 --> 00:13:13.768
It's not so much that we're connected or moms talk to their daughters daily, even when they're 25, and that kind of thing.

00:13:13.768 --> 00:13:24.315
One thing that really worries me is that social media has almost become the younger generation's standard of everything.

00:13:24.315 --> 00:13:27.902
It's standard of advice, it's standard of what the norm is.

00:13:27.902 --> 00:13:33.504
It's almost groupthink, and I used to really try to tell my kids don't groupthink, you'll get stuck.

00:13:33.504 --> 00:13:35.452
So that's the piece that I worry about.

00:13:35.452 --> 00:13:46.777
They tend to go to that first, and I'm a grandmother too and I'm so close to my kids, my grandkids, but I worry that maybe mom's advice or grandmother's advice, even about parenting, might come second.

00:13:46.777 --> 00:13:48.322
What do you think Might come second?

00:13:48.322 --> 00:13:53.432
Is that what you said Might be the second thing that they'll listen to instead of, you know, the first thing?

00:13:53.820 --> 00:13:55.683
Well, yeah, it might be.

00:13:55.683 --> 00:14:20.301
I mean, look, that too has always been a little more complicated than people think, because the advice that you get from your mom or your grandmother comes loaded with your own irritations and resentments and evaluation of how they brought you up, and societies have very interesting, complicated ways of passing down child-rearing wisdom.

00:14:20.301 --> 00:14:29.307
So in some cultures it's assumed that you will do things the way that the elders in your community or your neighborhood do them.

00:14:29.307 --> 00:14:45.996
And in other communities, certainly in modern Western life look at Dr Spock A whole generation, certainly my mom, when she was young, turned to Dr Spock before she turned to her mother, and she felt superior to her mother, like she was reading something that was based in science.

00:14:45.996 --> 00:14:48.298
That's a really good point.

00:14:48.298 --> 00:14:50.202
So that too is not totally new.

00:14:50.705 --> 00:15:12.114
I think one thing that you bring up that I do worry about you read about this all the time in the news is that social media presents a perfect version of everything, and so young moms and dads may be seeing examples of family life that seems so perfect that they feel theirs is inadequate.

00:15:12.114 --> 00:15:21.061
That worries me, because now that I have two kids with little kids and we spend, you know they've grown up, those two little kids.

00:15:21.061 --> 00:15:28.072
Well, they're not grown up, they're only two and a half, but at the first two years, two and a half years of their life, during a pandemic.

00:15:28.072 --> 00:15:43.703
So we have spent an enormous amount of time together because we were in a pod together during the worst of the pandemic, and I keep trying to share with them all my mistakes and all the things that I didn't do right or that I'm uncertain of.

00:15:43.703 --> 00:16:06.346
And you know it's it's a doubly loaded for for them and for me, cause I'm a developmental psychologist and I teach courses on child development and I wrote a book about parenting, and so I'm very eager, especially with my daughters-in-law, to make it clear that most of the time I had no idea what I was doing, but there's so much that I screwed up and that I still screw up.

00:16:06.748 --> 00:16:18.605
And so that's the piece about social media that worries me, not that it replaces what mom or grandma has to say, but that it gives young parents the sense that somebody else has a perfect way of doing it.

00:16:18.605 --> 00:16:26.386
And one thing I really wanted to talk about, because I feel so strongly about it and you mentioned some one of you said the word job.

00:16:26.386 --> 00:16:30.474
Parenting is not a job, it's a relationship and God.

00:16:30.474 --> 00:16:34.447
If you didn't know that when they were sick, you know it when they're 20.

00:16:34.447 --> 00:16:37.380
There's no right way to do it.

00:16:37.380 --> 00:16:44.504
There's some ways that make you and your kid happier, and some ways pitfalls, mistakes but it's not a job.

00:16:44.846 --> 00:16:49.750
I agree with you and I want to just say something about when you said step away and you want to continue the relationship.

00:16:49.750 --> 00:17:08.134
I think that's true, but one of the things that I've learned through this podcast is that the relationships change and unless one person called it a dance and that dance has to evolve, meaning there's a difference in having a relationship with a two-year-old and a 16-year-old and a 25-year-old.

00:17:08.134 --> 00:17:25.386
And one of the things that came to me very clear in all your comments even about people that didn't have children, but they were relating back to how they felt about their parents parenting them as young adults is the parent's ego getting involved when you're talking to a child and having a conversation with them?

00:17:25.386 --> 00:17:26.990
Is your ego involved?

00:17:26.990 --> 00:17:27.932
Like, are you going to be okay?

00:17:27.932 --> 00:17:28.773
Did you lose your job?

00:17:28.773 --> 00:17:30.669
Are you going to get another job?

00:17:30.669 --> 00:17:32.519
You know that's not how you have a relationship.

00:17:32.539 --> 00:17:33.544
That's the Greek mother.

00:17:33.644 --> 00:17:40.788
That's the Greek mother, Right, right, right right, but I think that's what I take as stepping aside.

00:17:40.788 --> 00:17:49.267
The relationship has to evolve and you can no longer still be the judgy parent or your ego has to be to the side.

00:17:49.267 --> 00:17:50.510
What do you think about that?

00:17:51.421 --> 00:17:56.015
Again, I think we're all human and your ego is involved.

00:17:56.015 --> 00:18:13.849
Recently I have to tell a little digression A young colleague of mine she used to be my student but now she's a professor and she was telling me that she felt a little uncomfortable because all her friends are having kids and she and her partner aren't sure they want to have kids and that makes her feel selfish.

00:18:13.849 --> 00:18:16.365
And I said, oh boy, oh boy, you're not selfish.

00:18:16.365 --> 00:18:18.092
It's selfish to have kids.

00:18:18.092 --> 00:18:31.039
After all, no kid asks to be born and once they're here they're sort of stuck and our egos are involved and honestly, in terms of when kids are young, the fact that your ego is involved helps you be a parent.

00:18:31.039 --> 00:18:38.662
It helps you get your kid to be a talker, get your kid to learn to, to learn to abide by societal norms.

00:18:38.662 --> 00:18:44.269
It's, it's a part of being a parent, because it's part of what makes you invest so much in your kid.

00:18:44.269 --> 00:18:50.238
It's just human to be that way, and so I suppose I would put it a little differently.

00:18:50.238 --> 00:19:10.260
Maybe I'm just older than you guys and so I've been humbled by all my mistakes, but sometimes you you can try to temper that, you can say back off a little pipe down, don't push them about their job or realize that what they want for their life is different than what you thought they would want for their life or what you wanted for them.

00:19:10.260 --> 00:19:15.751
But I don't think there's any such thing as putting your ego aside.

00:19:15.751 --> 00:19:17.521
I'll tell you one more story about this.

00:19:18.143 --> 00:19:30.731
Years ago I had a very good friend who had kids the same age as my kids and they were all in their teens at the time and I was telling her a story about us arguing interminably in the evening about what to watch on TV.

00:19:30.731 --> 00:19:38.865
And my one kid didn't want to watch TV at all and my other kid and I wanted to watch sports and the third kid wanted to watch a police drum or something.

00:19:38.865 --> 00:19:50.329
And we argued and fought and bickered and my friend said in a somewhat superior way oh, when I'm watching TV with my kids, I never argue, I just let them watch, they get to choose.

00:19:50.329 --> 00:19:52.542
I let them watch what, choose what we're going to watch.

00:19:52.542 --> 00:19:55.211
And I said oh, and you watch whatever the show was.

00:19:55.211 --> 00:19:57.305
That I thought she hated and I hated.

00:19:57.325 --> 00:19:59.872
And I said you let them watch that you can stand to sit there.

00:19:59.872 --> 00:20:00.740
She said I don't know.

00:20:00.740 --> 00:20:02.803
After about five minutes I get up and leave the room.

00:20:02.803 --> 00:20:05.106
She said, I don't know, after about five minutes I get up and leave the room For me.

00:20:05.106 --> 00:20:18.904
I'd rather stay in there and bicker and come to a solution that we both can be part of, you know, in that case, watch a show that we both want to watch together than to be completely removed.

00:20:18.904 --> 00:20:36.765
And my point there is that there's a fine line between holding back a little bit which I think is great, I agree with you about that and holding back so much that you've basically detached, and so I guess I just think there's a little more messiness to it, uh, than than people think.

00:20:37.226 --> 00:20:40.092
It's like the relationship is negotiation too.

00:20:40.092 --> 00:20:41.921
I I'm one of those people.

00:20:41.921 --> 00:20:48.263
I think that as long as everyone gets to be heard, I think that and you sort of negotiate and decide.

00:20:48.263 --> 00:20:54.828
Um, you know, people can make their choices, but if everyone's heard, that to me makes a happier relationship.

00:20:54.828 --> 00:20:56.294
Maybe that's true.

00:20:56.294 --> 00:21:08.464
So that leads me to one question I've had as a parent of an adult kid is it ever appropriate, or is it absolutely appropriate, to sort of ask for what we want, or do the kids get to call the shots?

00:21:08.464 --> 00:21:12.673
So your TV story sort of explains that in a way.

00:21:12.673 --> 00:21:25.672
But is it ever appropriate to say to the kids could I share what I'm thinking, and it's only a suggestion or it's only a thought to add to the conversation say, they're in a critical moment or a hardship.

00:21:25.672 --> 00:21:27.122
Is it okay to ask that?

00:21:27.122 --> 00:21:31.030
Or do they get to lead when they're the ones who are having the problems?

00:21:31.471 --> 00:21:33.743
Oh boy, that's the million dollar question, isn't it?

00:21:33.743 --> 00:21:35.689
I know?

00:21:35.689 --> 00:21:37.353
Well, I wish I knew the answer.

00:21:37.353 --> 00:21:37.894
I mean.

00:21:37.894 --> 00:21:48.580
Well, one thing I can tell you from personal experiences I often suffer from the illusion that I'm being subtler than I really am, absolutely Right.

00:21:48.580 --> 00:22:01.061
So I think I'm really holding back and I'm just kind of hinting at another way they could approach it, or the job they should take, or the negotiation they should make with the boss, what they might say to their partner.

00:22:01.061 --> 00:22:12.821
And God knows, now that two of them have kids, I think I'm being so subtle about parenting stuff and it turns out that I'm not so subtle and usually they know exactly what I'm hinting around at.

00:22:12.922 --> 00:22:15.628
And in those situations sometimes it would be better.

00:22:15.628 --> 00:22:19.800
Sometimes it is better to just say what you think, like take it or leave it.

00:22:19.800 --> 00:22:24.943
But here's what I think you should do, because after all, that's what you'd say to a friend, at least some of the time.

00:22:24.943 --> 00:22:27.770
Good point, and of course it's again.

00:22:27.770 --> 00:22:31.584
It's complicated by the fact that each of your kids is a different person.

00:22:31.584 --> 00:22:35.268
If you have more than one, they bring to the table a lot.

00:22:35.308 --> 00:22:48.114
To my three sons, I am proud to say, but also exasperated to say don't hesitate to push back or to tell me to pipe down or to tell me that I'm being intrusive.

00:22:48.114 --> 00:22:54.983
I mean, it's like a family joke and I think their partners are sometimes a little taken aback by the way that they talk to me.

00:22:54.983 --> 00:23:00.403
I thank God for it because I don't have to worry too much about saying too much or coming on too strong, because they'll let me know.

00:23:00.403 --> 00:23:06.583
I thank God for it because I don't have to worry too much about saying too much or coming on too strong, because they'll let me know they're very strong and they're very direct and I'm very grateful for that.

00:23:06.884 --> 00:23:08.468
Same with my four boys.

00:23:08.468 --> 00:23:14.270
My ego gets involved when, if they do bark back at me and I'm the same way as you, I think I'm being subtle.

00:23:14.270 --> 00:23:18.871
And then when I get done, I think was I just barking like five bullet points?

00:23:18.871 --> 00:23:23.351
And I too I read one of your quotes, susan, are you taking notes?

00:23:23.351 --> 00:23:26.922
You asked your son when you were coming up with the solution.

00:23:26.922 --> 00:23:33.103
I'm like, oh, I literally said like you should maybe write some of these down, you know, and I thought, oh my God, did I just say that?

00:23:33.103 --> 00:23:34.664
Yeah, I do.

00:23:34.664 --> 00:23:35.625
I worry a lot.

00:23:35.625 --> 00:23:41.733
I love my daughters-in-law, but I don't want them talking behind my back like, holy crap, your mom is really too strong.

00:23:41.733 --> 00:23:46.203
I think I'm being subtle, but I don't know, they probably are talking behind your back.

00:23:47.365 --> 00:23:48.387
I know mine do.

00:23:48.387 --> 00:23:55.068
I said recently to my eldest son, jake, my husband and I were bickering.

00:23:55.068 --> 00:23:59.881
Luckily, today I read a piece in the New York Times about how bickering is okay.

00:23:59.881 --> 00:24:00.722
It was a big relief.

00:24:00.722 --> 00:24:08.828
But anyway, I said something to my son like I know it's hard, for his wife's name is Silke.

00:24:08.828 --> 00:24:09.913
I know it's hard for Silke.

00:24:09.913 --> 00:24:12.642
She doesn't like it when we bicker because her parents don't.

00:24:12.642 --> 00:24:13.663
They're very harmonious.

00:24:13.663 --> 00:24:16.107
And he said it's true, she doesn't.

00:24:16.107 --> 00:24:19.712
A big cloud thought bubble came up in my head.

00:24:19.712 --> 00:24:22.637
Oh my God, it's true, she doesn't A big cloud thought bubble came up in my head.

00:24:22.637 --> 00:24:23.940
Oh my God, what's she saying about me?

00:24:23.940 --> 00:24:26.093
How much do they talk about how horrible I am at bickering in front of them?

00:24:26.093 --> 00:24:27.765
And then I thought too bad.

00:24:27.765 --> 00:24:28.367
So what?

00:24:28.367 --> 00:24:30.307
That's what people do they talk about each other?

00:24:30.621 --> 00:24:33.246
And I also wanna say I'm listening to all of you talk about boys.

00:24:33.246 --> 00:24:38.342
There's a real difference between adult children as girls and boys, between adult children as girls and boys.

00:24:38.342 --> 00:24:42.987
My son does come back at me and say, mom, don't say that, my daughter can take it more sensitively.

00:24:42.987 --> 00:24:45.190
I think that's how you build relationships.

00:24:45.190 --> 00:24:47.652
I think, without bickering, you have a false relationship.

00:24:47.832 --> 00:24:49.713
Oh, you should read this piece in the Times.

00:24:49.713 --> 00:24:51.195
It'll make you very happy, Okay.

00:24:51.336 --> 00:24:51.596
I will.

00:24:51.596 --> 00:25:02.526
You know it's very early in Denver so I have not read the New York Times yet, but anyway, I just really believe that bickering and sometimes tears at the end are what bring you closer.

00:25:02.526 --> 00:25:05.020
I think it's held true, but anyway, I want to go through your journey.

00:25:05.020 --> 00:25:12.622
When you wrote this article in 2013, you were ready to become a Buddhist monk or start a Buddhist group.

00:25:13.123 --> 00:25:19.362
Now you're talking like oh, I'm so strong, I tell them what I think, I don't care if they talk about me.

00:25:19.362 --> 00:25:20.175
Suddenly you're like, oh my gosh, a whole different strong.

00:25:20.175 --> 00:25:20.609
I tell them what I think, I don't care if they talk about me.

00:25:20.609 --> 00:25:22.696
Suddenly you're like, oh my gosh, a whole different person.

00:25:22.696 --> 00:25:29.210
Can you take us some steps through this journey and also address how it changed when you did have daughter-in-laws?

00:25:29.210 --> 00:25:30.553
I don't have daughter-in-laws.

00:25:30.553 --> 00:25:38.807
Well, I guess I have a fiance-in-law and girlfriends and that sort of thing, and I'm always walking on eggshells, but I want to hear your journey a little bit.

00:25:38.967 --> 00:25:45.585
Okay, let me just start by saying that, if I sound all strong and clear, it's only 10, 24 here.

00:25:45.585 --> 00:25:46.807
The day is young.

00:25:46.807 --> 00:25:53.522
Wait till something happens later in the day and I fall apart, and then that actually is part of my answer.

00:25:53.522 --> 00:25:57.146
So, yeah, so that was a very rough time.

00:25:57.146 --> 00:26:08.205
My middle son had gone through a really brutal string of really what felt to him and therefore to me at the time like catastrophes, and they really were terrible.

00:26:08.205 --> 00:26:12.240
It was a time of real suffering and I'll get back to that in a minute.

00:26:12.721 --> 00:26:16.372
I have a moderate contemporary story to tell you about my sister that relates to that.

00:26:16.372 --> 00:26:22.309
But I thought I couldn't stand it and I couldn't stand watching him be in so much pain.

00:26:22.309 --> 00:26:24.647
I couldn't stand how helpless I felt.

00:26:24.647 --> 00:26:37.188
And just as we've been talking about it began to dawn on me that my coping skills for myself and my ways of helping him had to be totally different than they had been when he was seven or 10.

00:26:37.188 --> 00:26:43.867
The problems were different and my role in it was different, and that's what led me to write that piece.

00:26:44.690 --> 00:26:56.750
The good news is that my son is more resilient than I thought he was at that time and maybe I was able to provide some of the support that was useful to him, but I don't know that that really had anything to do with it.

00:26:57.161 --> 00:27:36.722
But he got through that really tough time and, after all you both probably know I see this now with my students at Williams your early 20s can be really brutal and if anything is going on either in your personal life, like a breakup or a job problem or an illness, a calamity, or in this right now, in 2022, a world calamity, being in your early 20s is just brutal, because you feel you're supposed to be propelling forward and doing things and accomplishing things and getting to be on your own and you feel totally punched in the gut about life.

00:27:36.722 --> 00:27:56.742
But he was resilient and he got through that period of time and I think that I began to think a lot about some of the things you two have brought up how to calm down a little bit, how to step back, how to trust my kids to figure things out, how to not try to rush in and fix everything, how to just listen.

00:27:56.742 --> 00:27:58.424
I mentioned that in that column not try to rush in and fix everything.

00:27:58.464 --> 00:27:59.586
How to just listen, I mentioned that in that column.

00:27:59.605 --> 00:28:06.492
My eldest son said at the time about a different problem that he was having, not quite as intense, but also a real problem.

00:28:06.492 --> 00:28:16.840
He said Mom, I'm not trying to get you to come up with a solution, I just want you to listen.

00:28:16.840 --> 00:28:17.521
I still struggle with that.

00:28:17.521 --> 00:28:18.042
They still vent to me.

00:28:18.042 --> 00:28:18.904
I live right next door to two of them.

00:28:18.904 --> 00:28:30.030
The third is a little different in the way he and I communicate and I still have to remind myself don't fix, don't solve, don't try to be all cheerful and just listen and I'm better at that with my friends.

00:28:30.030 --> 00:28:34.486
So partly it's learning how to copy my friend self.

00:28:34.486 --> 00:28:36.410
When I'm listening to my kids.

00:28:37.090 --> 00:28:39.849
I don't really have much more that would be interesting to say a thing about my journey except to my kids.

00:28:39.849 --> 00:28:51.586
I don't really have much more that would be interesting to say about my journey except that my kids went on growing up and they're wonderful people and I'm very lucky because I adore them and they like me too.

00:28:51.586 --> 00:28:57.906
I actually say that not to boast, but because it goes back to the comment about relationship versus job.

00:28:57.906 --> 00:29:03.587
I just like to talk to them and be with them and I like who they are and like what they do.

00:29:03.587 --> 00:29:19.426
That really matters as your kids get older that you find ways not just to be a parent but to just enjoy them, and if you do, they're likely to enjoy you, and that becomes more and more important as they become more and more independent and grown up.

00:29:19.426 --> 00:29:22.952
So that son is as I mentioned.

00:29:22.952 --> 00:29:28.122
He's married, he has a wonderful career and he has an incredibly cute little boy.

00:29:28.343 --> 00:29:30.067
Are the grandchildren both boys, by the way.

00:29:30.428 --> 00:29:32.092
No, oh, okay, you got a girl.

00:29:32.092 --> 00:29:34.643
Yeah, I got a girl, I do too.

00:29:34.643 --> 00:29:38.750
Middle son, the one I wrote the piece about has a little boy.

00:29:38.750 --> 00:29:38.891
Do too.

00:29:38.891 --> 00:29:46.861
Middle son, the one I wrote the piece about has a little boy, henry, and he's well, he's almost three, I guess.

00:29:46.861 --> 00:29:49.728
And then my eldest son, his older brother, had a little girl a few months later, and they are the funniest dynamic duo.

00:29:49.728 --> 00:29:51.711
Her name is Lena, so Henry.

00:29:51.811 --> 00:30:04.250
It's funny because my paternal grandfather was named Henry and my maternal grandmother was named Lena and because my parents were divorced, henry and Lena were from the different parts of the family and didn't like each other.

00:30:04.250 --> 00:30:08.029
But this Henry and Lena really love each other and we laugh.

00:30:08.029 --> 00:30:10.442
We say finally, henry and Lena want a hug.

00:30:10.442 --> 00:30:13.067
Oh my gosh that's so beautiful.

00:30:13.409 --> 00:30:22.266
I want to ask you about the transition to daughter-in-laws and significant others and in your article you talked about your son breaking up with someone.

00:30:22.266 --> 00:30:23.167
He was heartbroken.

00:30:23.167 --> 00:30:24.392
Then he met someone else.

00:30:24.392 --> 00:30:27.045
How do you welcome that person?

00:30:27.045 --> 00:30:30.813
Well, how do you handle it if you don't really like that person?

00:30:31.200 --> 00:30:33.487
Oh boy, Well, I'm lucky.

00:30:33.487 --> 00:30:35.492
I adore my daughters-in-law.

00:30:35.492 --> 00:30:36.095
I adore.

00:30:36.095 --> 00:30:39.653
I have very different relationships with each of them.

00:30:39.653 --> 00:30:45.535
They're very different people, but they're both feel lucky and I feel my sons are lucky.

00:30:45.535 --> 00:30:55.744
I feel my daughters-in-law are lucky too, because they got great guys and my youngest son is seeing someone that I also adore and think the world of, but that's a newer relationship.

00:30:55.744 --> 00:31:05.705
So one time but my sons have dated people I wasn't crazy about and that I was a mess that freaked me out.

00:31:05.967 --> 00:31:19.249
And one time and my son knows this, so I don't mind saying that on the podcast One time I, in between serious relationships, my eldest son dated someone that I couldn't stand and it freaked me out.

00:31:19.249 --> 00:31:25.952
I thought, oh, his life will be hell and so will mine, I think you should be a stand-up comedian.

00:31:27.901 --> 00:31:29.765
Tell my students that I will.

00:31:29.765 --> 00:31:31.169
I will, anyway.

00:31:31.169 --> 00:31:38.978
So I said to my best friend, who's a clinical psychologist, I said, oh my God, what am I going to do when?

00:31:38.978 --> 00:31:40.082
When should I say something?

00:31:40.082 --> 00:31:41.567
Yeah, I need to tell him.

00:31:41.567 --> 00:31:42.910
It's just like what we've been talking about.

00:31:42.910 --> 00:31:44.041
I said I need to tell him.

00:31:44.041 --> 00:31:45.506
She's a bad choice.

00:31:45.506 --> 00:31:51.261
And we agreed I was going to wait two more weeks and then I was going to say something.

00:31:51.261 --> 00:32:04.009
And wouldn't you know, he broke up with her within those two weeks and now he smiles this tolerant sort of bemused smile and he says that was never a serious thing, mom, that was just really fun for an interlude.

00:32:04.009 --> 00:32:12.799
And so you know phew, I'm wiping my brow because I just we both dodged a bullet with that one, so I'm lucky.

00:32:13.405 --> 00:32:23.132
That said, I will agree that it's a little complicated and because my daughters-in-law live right next door, it's even more complicated.

00:32:23.132 --> 00:32:37.792
I'm right up in their grill all the time and because of the pandemic I helped a lot, especially in the beginning, in the first six months, when there was no child care available but all my kids and their partners were working.

00:32:37.792 --> 00:32:39.346
I was very involved.

00:32:39.346 --> 00:32:41.862
I helped a lot, and I had to because of the pandemic.

00:32:41.862 --> 00:32:54.271
It made me super attached to my little grandchildren, and then probably more in their grill even than I would have been, because we were each other's only dinner company.

00:32:54.271 --> 00:32:55.961
So we'd have dinner once a week together.

00:32:55.961 --> 00:33:00.607
Other than that, you'd never see anybody, as you all know, for weeks and months on end.

00:33:00.607 --> 00:33:16.002
So, learning how to shut my mouth to paraphrase your podcast bite your tongue, and also, in my case, I've learned recently quite painfully, that I have such an overexpressive face.

00:33:16.002 --> 00:33:17.125
Oh, me too.

00:33:17.125 --> 00:33:19.730
Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy oh.

00:33:19.769 --> 00:33:24.364
Oh boy I don't know how to play poker, but I wait, doesn't a mask help with that?

00:33:24.364 --> 00:33:25.346
You've got half of your.

00:33:25.346 --> 00:33:27.291
You've got half of your face not showing.

00:33:28.441 --> 00:33:30.625
Oh no not with your kids?

00:33:30.625 --> 00:33:32.548
Yeah, because they're in your pod Val.

00:33:32.589 --> 00:33:35.602
They just, they just see my eyes and they know what I'm thinking.

00:33:35.602 --> 00:33:37.246
It's terrible.

00:33:37.807 --> 00:33:41.013
And so I have learned to walk into the other room and cook.

00:33:41.013 --> 00:33:46.368
I'm not kidding you, something's happening with the little kids.

00:33:46.368 --> 00:33:52.871
I get worried they're going to fall or that someone's not paying attention when the kid is trying to do something.

00:33:52.871 --> 00:33:54.923
I think is really important for them to say something.

00:33:54.923 --> 00:34:00.080
I want some grownup to hear them say, and I just like go into the kitchen right now and stir the soup.

00:34:01.384 --> 00:34:03.047
Susan, I have a question about all this.

00:34:03.047 --> 00:34:18.952
So one thing that you said really I just from talking to you this past 30 minutes you have a very humble side and that's probably really refreshing for your daughters-in-law, even if you say the words that come on strong or whatever.

00:34:18.952 --> 00:34:22.447
Daughters-in-law, even if you say the words that come on strong or whatever it sounds like.

00:34:22.447 --> 00:34:37.021
You also talk a lot about your foibles and ways, the times you screwed up, and that's probably a really gentle way to let your ego step back and let them hear that, even though you're a psychologist and you know everything, you didn't know everything back at the time you know, and I think that's you know.

00:34:37.161 --> 00:34:38.403
I try to do more of that.

00:34:38.403 --> 00:34:44.487
I try to really compliment my daughter-in-law when I see something great and I talk a lot about how I screwed up.

00:34:44.487 --> 00:34:50.733
You know, I think I was a great parent on the flip side, but there were so many things I didn't know I was just winging it.

00:34:50.893 --> 00:34:54.704
Yeah, I think the role of mother-in-law is.

00:34:54.704 --> 00:35:07.940
So I don't know whether the word is freighted or weighted, but, like you said, if you also have this added thing that you have some expertise as a researcher or scholar in that area, it's kind of a heavy baggage.

00:35:07.940 --> 00:35:12.070
So I don't know whether that humility helps much.

00:35:12.070 --> 00:35:14.887
You'd have to interview my daughter's-in-law about that.

00:35:14.887 --> 00:35:15.990
Yeah, that's next.

00:35:15.990 --> 00:35:21.592
Yeah, you get them and promise them anonymity so they tell you the truth.

00:35:21.592 --> 00:35:25.168
Right, yeah, I try.

00:35:25.168 --> 00:35:27.925
I mean, the thing is about the best parenting thing.

00:35:27.925 --> 00:35:35.847
I just would say, even if this rubs you the wrong way, forgive me, life has made me more humble and I'm not sure there is like best parents.

00:35:35.947 --> 00:35:36.670
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:35:36.800 --> 00:35:42.724
You know, if you really love your kids and you reflect on things once in a while, then you're doing pretty well.

00:35:42.724 --> 00:35:48.887
You're right, yeah, otherwise, it's a contest and it's a performance and it's and who knows what's best.

00:35:48.887 --> 00:35:58.242
I mean, it's just stumbling along, hoping that more of the time, you, you help each other and like each other than the other, than the opposite.

00:35:58.242 --> 00:35:58.882
You know what I mean.

00:35:59.023 --> 00:36:01.668
Susan, I have one really specific question.

00:36:01.668 --> 00:36:05.914
Sure, and it has to do with different personality types.

00:36:05.914 --> 00:36:09.353
I love all the Myers-Briggs personality indicators and stuff like that.

00:36:09.353 --> 00:36:13.525
My sisters and I, we love typing our kids and our family and all of that.

00:36:13.525 --> 00:36:19.184
But if you truly have, you know you have different personalities with each child, as you said.

00:36:19.184 --> 00:36:27.739
And then the daughters and sons-in-law come in and you not only have different personalities there, but they've been maybe raised differently.

00:36:27.940 --> 00:36:32.871
So now everything gets a little bit more complicated with dials.

00:36:32.871 --> 00:36:41.452
Can you touch a little bit on that, because it's different approaches for different scenarios, I guess, and sometimes that's rough.

00:36:41.940 --> 00:36:44.585
I think that's really key.

00:36:44.585 --> 00:36:46.429
I think that's a really important point.

00:36:46.429 --> 00:36:56.784
So one thing that I've learned by having daughters-in-law and now, you know, grandchildren is that these other parents are part of the package, which thank God they are.

00:36:56.784 --> 00:37:01.244
They have their own experiences growing up, part of the package which, thank God they are.

00:37:01.244 --> 00:37:02.387
They have their own experiences growing up.

00:37:02.387 --> 00:37:03.532
I'll give you a very concrete example.

00:37:03.532 --> 00:37:07.284
It may not be the most important, but it's an easy one to talk about because it's so concrete.

00:37:07.505 --> 00:37:17.942
One of my daughters-in-law grew up with a very strong point of view and a very strong sort of tradition of believing that sugar was very bad, didn't eat sugar growing up.

00:37:17.942 --> 00:37:25.960
Her parents believed in a very sort of I don't know what the word would be they were very diet conscious and very interested in natural foods.

00:37:25.960 --> 00:37:27.864
But not I am too.

00:37:27.864 --> 00:37:29.708
Actually, I'm obsessed with cooking.

00:37:29.708 --> 00:37:31.231
We're all huge eaters.

00:37:31.231 --> 00:37:38.842
Huge cooks love healthy food, but I love sugar and I love to bake, and my kids grew up on a steady diet of sweets, as did I.

00:37:40.427 --> 00:37:46.572
In my most recent book, which is not about this topic at all, I started off talking about a visit to the candy store.

00:37:46.572 --> 00:38:00.713
So, honestly, it's easy to talk about because it's not quite so loaded, or well, it is a little loaded but it's not as amorphous as some bigger, heavier emotional issue.

00:38:00.713 --> 00:38:12.695
But it bothers my daughter-in-law that often there are sweets in the house, that I get so excited over what I'm going to bake, that her son has learned that when he comes over here there's a good chance there'll be a cookie or something.

00:38:12.695 --> 00:38:16.976
And I wouldn't say that I've handled that that well.

00:38:16.976 --> 00:38:29.275
And part of what I've grappled with is that it's not just her, it's not an idea or a belief that she sort of pulled out of a magazine or a podcast.

00:38:29.275 --> 00:38:35.440
It's how she was raised, yeah, yeah, and I have to respect that and that's been a struggle for me actually.

00:38:35.922 --> 00:38:38.311
You were writing this article in 2013,.

00:38:38.311 --> 00:38:39.695
Your husband's role.

00:38:39.695 --> 00:38:43.365
Where was he in this whole parenting dilemma and parenting adult kids?

00:38:43.365 --> 00:38:47.161
How did he feel, what did he share with you and how did it evolve?

00:38:47.543 --> 00:38:54.525
I would say that in our marriage like many marriages of that era maybe not so much anymore I was the more involved parent.

00:38:54.525 --> 00:38:57.420
I mean I don't know how else to put it, that's kind of blunt.

00:38:57.420 --> 00:39:04.054
But he was a loving dad and he was here and he was very powerful, important force in their lives.

00:39:04.054 --> 00:39:06.688
But I was sort of the active one, let's just say.

00:39:06.688 --> 00:39:16.632
And he, by temperament, is quieter, he's slightly more reserved and you know, he's a little more at times disengaged.

00:39:16.632 --> 00:39:19.568
You know all these words have a good side and a bad side.

00:39:19.568 --> 00:39:23.307
So trying to convey the good side and the bad side, and so I don't.

00:39:23.307 --> 00:39:32.143
He was pretty distraught over our son's pain Actually there are a lot of ways in which they're quite alike and I think it pained him.

00:39:32.143 --> 00:39:38.579
But he never has felt the impulse to to change things, to fix things, to get involved.

00:39:38.579 --> 00:39:40.849
I went to all the parent-teacher conferences.

00:39:40.849 --> 00:39:42.885
I was mostly the one.

00:39:42.885 --> 00:39:48.027
I once counted up how many times I went to the ER and it was something like 48 times.

00:39:48.268 --> 00:39:53.329
Me too yeah that's a terrible gender thing to say, but it's true.

00:39:53.329 --> 00:39:55.224
Yeah, true, more typical if you have boys.

00:39:55.224 --> 00:40:00.313
And so I was at more like I was at 40 of those ER visits on my own.

00:40:00.313 --> 00:40:06.014
That is to say that I think he was a little quieter and in some ways maybe that was better.

00:40:06.456 --> 00:40:17.286
At one point I wanted him to intercede with someone on behalf of my son, an employer who had done something terrible to my son, unethical, and I I had.

00:40:17.286 --> 00:40:21.094
I really had to push my husband to do it and he really didn't want to.

00:40:21.094 --> 00:40:29.684
I'll never know, was he right to be have the impulse to stay out of it, or was he wrong and I was right to push him?

00:40:29.684 --> 00:40:30.184
He did it.

00:40:30.184 --> 00:40:35.224
Then he went and talked to this person to no avail, but at least my son felt.

00:40:35.224 --> 00:40:41.101
I thought my son felt supported by us and protected by us, which I thought at the time he needed.

00:40:41.101 --> 00:40:51.728
So that's where he was, and even now he tends to take a little bit more of a backseat but on the other hand, also be a little calmer, sort of take the long view.

00:40:51.728 --> 00:40:54.123
So that's how I would answer that.

00:40:54.143 --> 00:40:55.648
So I want to ask you something about that.

00:40:55.648 --> 00:40:57.072
I have a very similar husband.

00:40:57.072 --> 00:41:07.969
What I sometimes do and I'd love to know if you ever did this or what your opinion is, because I'm a talker and I'm most involved and they read my eyes and everything that you said we could be twins.

00:41:07.969 --> 00:41:08.851
We could be twins.

00:41:08.851 --> 00:41:18.286
I sometimes have my husband say something that I think is important to them, because they listen to it more, because he doesn't say that much.

00:41:18.867 --> 00:41:19.871
Well, that's interesting.

00:41:19.871 --> 00:41:23.500
First of all, I never would occur to me to have those kinds of thoughts.

00:41:23.500 --> 00:41:26.847
I just have to be honest about the budget.

00:41:26.847 --> 00:41:29.572
I'm impressed, but I'd never do that.

00:41:29.572 --> 00:41:35.289
I'm always sure I can say it better, even when I can't.

00:41:35.289 --> 00:41:36.893
I just don't know how to answer that.

00:41:36.893 --> 00:41:38.262
No, that was never me.

00:41:38.262 --> 00:41:41.282
Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I should?

00:41:41.302 --> 00:41:44.730
I just feel like it's kind of like when he speaks they listen.

00:41:44.730 --> 00:41:46.824
When I speak, they're like here she goes again.

00:41:46.824 --> 00:41:48.268
Yeah, you have a good dynamic.

00:41:48.420 --> 00:41:50.224
We have a slightly different dynamic.

00:41:50.224 --> 00:41:51.989
There was a movie called the Proposal.

00:41:52.110 --> 00:41:54.963
I just oh, that's really such a silly movie.

00:41:54.963 --> 00:41:58.670
But I've watched it too, and I think Betty White is in it.

00:41:58.690 --> 00:42:00.534
That's why we all watched it.

00:42:06.199 --> 00:42:07.525
Well, so it just came up the other day in some memoriam.

00:42:07.525 --> 00:42:14.981
But Mary Steenburgen says to her husband she at one point she's mad at how her husband has treated the daughter or the son-in-law or whatever it is, and she says you have to make this right.

00:42:14.981 --> 00:42:20.786
And the husband he like goes, oh okay, and trudges over to make it right.

00:42:20.786 --> 00:42:42.081
And I remember feeling jealous, like thinking why can't I just say to my husband, you, I should shut up and I can't fix it and I shouldn't be trying to.

00:42:42.081 --> 00:42:46.751
Or if I think I really have something to say, I have to say it for myself.

00:42:47.112 --> 00:42:48.034
Interesting yeah.

00:42:48.280 --> 00:42:50.284
I have a question, Denise, real fast, Go ahead Val.

00:42:50.304 --> 00:42:52.519
And then I have one more, and then we're going to wrap up Go ahead, val.

00:42:53.041 --> 00:42:54.322
Oh boy, I have so many questions.

00:42:54.322 --> 00:43:09.871
But, susan, what if you observe that somebody is hurting your adult child, and I don't mean that literally, but maybe there's a controlling person in their lives or something that's impacting them and is pushing them down a little bit?

00:43:09.871 --> 00:43:19.168
Say, it's a brother and a sister, okay, and they're both adults, but one just always puts down the other, puts down the other, and it's making the other one act a certain way.

00:43:19.168 --> 00:43:28.708
Is there ever a time that you could come in and try to gently, let each see each other's point of view, any kind of involvement that way, or is that really dangerous?

00:43:29.530 --> 00:43:36.342
It's so funny that you bring this up now, because my family is going through something at several generations that has to do with this question.

00:43:36.342 --> 00:43:40.608
My three sons are quite close with each other, but that's not to say they don't have tangles.

00:43:40.608 --> 00:43:50.447
I have learned, sort of by being a sibling with a parent of my own, that there's almost no good way to get involved in that.

00:43:50.447 --> 00:43:56.282
So 95% of the time I just try to listen to both.

00:43:56.282 --> 00:44:04.889
When there's a tension or an upset or a hurt feeling or something, some of the time the only thing I feel I can say is you two should talk.

00:44:04.889 --> 00:44:05.632
Oh, that's good.

00:44:05.632 --> 00:44:13.887
And then there's one little piece that I've learned over the years that helps me, which is one thing you can do is pass on good things.

00:44:13.887 --> 00:44:25.048
So when one of my kids appreciates or says something wonderful about the other, I'm happy to pass that on, because that can only be good and they may not be expressing those things to each other.

00:44:25.601 --> 00:44:32.789
How can it ever hurt to hear that someone in your family loved you or appreciated something you did or felt loved by you?

00:44:32.789 --> 00:44:40.146
And sometimes you can add a little, not to bring up sugar again, but you can add a little sugar to things by doing that.

00:44:40.146 --> 00:44:41.141
It can only be good.

00:44:41.141 --> 00:44:45.411
The one thing that you never should do is pass on bad things.

00:44:45.411 --> 00:44:50.608
I just don't see how that ever is good, exactly, and when your kids are grown?

00:44:50.608 --> 00:45:01.402
I mean, you guys are the ones that were emphasizing the power of stepping back and stepping aside and creating some distance, and in this case, this is one place where I would wholeheartedly agree with you.

00:45:01.402 --> 00:45:11.300
They have to get good at working out their relationships with one another, so, unless you're saying something that makes them feel better about each other, say nothing.

00:45:11.521 --> 00:45:12.125
Bite your tongue.

00:45:12.125 --> 00:45:16.802
Yeah, you were talking about your son's living next door and the daughter in law's living next door.

00:45:16.802 --> 00:45:20.273
Two grandchildren living next door, Actually, my neighbor across the street.

00:45:20.273 --> 00:45:23.442
Her daughter lives next door and I'm very close to the little grandkids.

00:45:23.442 --> 00:45:25.851
They're my grandkids because I don't have any.

00:45:25.851 --> 00:45:33.251
But I always wonder how the other parents feel, like the in-laws they're in your little pod, Everyone's all together.

00:45:33.251 --> 00:45:37.505
How do the other parents deal with that, Like if I was the parent that lived in?

00:45:37.505 --> 00:45:40.449
You know you're in Williamstown, I assume, right?

00:45:40.510 --> 00:45:42.713
Well, South County of Berkshire County.

00:45:42.713 --> 00:45:43.614
I live in New Marlborough.

00:45:43.780 --> 00:45:52.028
The in-laws are in California or whatever it might be, and you're in your little pod, growing so close to these little kids and having this great experience.

00:45:52.028 --> 00:45:53.572
How do you deal with that?

00:45:53.572 --> 00:45:56.222
And how do the girls deal with it with their parents?

00:45:56.222 --> 00:45:57.184
And how do you?

00:45:57.184 --> 00:45:58.847
Do you engage the in-laws at?

00:45:58.927 --> 00:46:01.130
all, do you have another two or three hours?

00:46:01.130 --> 00:46:04.574
Well, I will say one thing.

00:46:04.574 --> 00:46:14.364
So one of my daughters-in-law her parents, live right nearby so it's not quite as unequal or asymmetrical as you might think and her, her mom is.

00:46:14.364 --> 00:46:27.445
Her parents aren't married, but her mom is very involved, a devoted grandmother and a devoted mom, and so that's nice, because there's not quite the asymmetry that you might think.

00:46:27.445 --> 00:46:33.670
My other daughter-in-law, her parents live about five hours away and sometimes I do think they each feel a little left out.

00:46:33.670 --> 00:46:42.284
Needless to say, I am a completely besotted grandmother and very I'd love to be with little kids and I love these little kids.

00:46:42.284 --> 00:46:54.771
So so, yeah, I think sometimes that does create some tension and I think my daughters-in-law are very alive to that and probably have to negotiate things of which I'm unaware, like hurt feelings or feeling left out.

00:46:55.340 --> 00:46:55.601
And Denise.

00:46:55.601 --> 00:46:57.425
I'm on the I'm on the flip side of that.

00:46:57.425 --> 00:47:05.130
So I've got my oldest lives in Berkeley, california, with two of our grandkids and they live fairly close to my daughter-in-law's parents.

00:47:05.130 --> 00:47:14.608
Of course I'd love to have them closer, but what I tell myself is if anybody else is going to get to be with that family and those kids, I love that it's them.

00:47:14.608 --> 00:47:22.233
I'm very lucky that I love them and I'm like, okay, they're holding down the fort until we get to come visit.

00:47:22.233 --> 00:47:24.188
That's such a great way of thinking about it.

00:47:24.188 --> 00:47:26.608
And again, just look at the bright side.

00:47:26.608 --> 00:47:29.869
Not everybody has that, but that's what gets me through.

00:47:30.041 --> 00:47:30.980
I think that's wonderful.

00:47:30.980 --> 00:47:40.050
I want to just correct one thing that you might think If you have a neighbor who can see this for yourself, it's paradise when it's paradise, but not always.

00:47:40.050 --> 00:47:46.773
So having them right next door means that I have to see bad things up close too.

00:47:46.773 --> 00:47:59.753
I mean, everybody makes fun of what happened when my middle son, when they were going to have a home birth and I could see the light on in their room and I just knew that labor wasn't progressing.

00:47:59.753 --> 00:48:08.965
I was so beside myself that my friend had to drive from Williamstown an hour to get here to drink scotch with me and wait and we kept peeking out the window to see if the light was still on.

00:48:08.965 --> 00:48:13.922
It was horrible If you're not a standup comic.

00:48:13.961 --> 00:48:17.208
you need to write a sitcom, Susan, but anyway.

00:48:17.489 --> 00:48:25.286
So what I mean is it's a mixed bag, and then when we are not getting longer, I put my foot in my mouth or there's tension.

00:48:25.286 --> 00:48:26.891
It's kind of awful.

00:48:26.891 --> 00:48:31.690
It's right up in our, you know, everybody's right up in each other's business and it's painful.

00:48:31.690 --> 00:48:34.244
There's very little distance, you know.

00:48:34.244 --> 00:48:35.487
I told you my youngest son.

00:48:35.487 --> 00:48:44.271
He lives in New York, a couple of hours away, and we're quite close and we talk a lot, but sometimes I only hear about a bad thing after it's happened and things are OK.

00:48:44.271 --> 00:48:47.987
And that has its own positive side.

00:48:47.987 --> 00:48:49.291
I'll give you an example.

00:48:49.291 --> 00:48:55.333
This morning I got a text from one of my sons saying that school had been canceled daycare because of the snow.

00:48:55.333 --> 00:49:11.389
There's a lot of snow where we are today and I had to write right away and say well, I can't help because I'm doing a podcast and then I have a meeting and what I mean to say is it is paradise a lot of the time, but it's not simple.

00:49:11.389 --> 00:49:12.753
Let me put it that way.

00:49:13.320 --> 00:49:21.342
Okay, we always end our episodes, susan, with our guests giving two or three takeaways that they want our listeners to take away from the episode.

00:49:21.342 --> 00:49:23.005
Can you provide those for us?

00:49:23.005 --> 00:49:24.289
I can try.

00:49:24.568 --> 00:49:26.574
Okay, I'll say two.

00:49:26.574 --> 00:49:42.706
One is, I've already said, think less of your relationship with your grown kids as a job that you can perfect or do right or wrong, and think of it more as a relationship that you hope that you and your kid will get a lot out of.

00:49:42.706 --> 00:49:52.059
Relationships are supposed to be a source of pleasure and support and sustenance, and that's true for your kids as well as for your friendships or your partners.

00:49:52.059 --> 00:49:53.101
So that's one.

00:49:53.101 --> 00:49:54.583
It's a relationship, not a job.

00:49:54.583 --> 00:50:05.891
And the second is a piece of good news, which is your kids go on changing and growing and the way they are that when they're 22 or 25 is not the way they'll always be.

00:50:06.420 --> 00:50:11.132
And the wonderful thing I've learned is, if you're lucky, they keep getting stronger.

00:50:11.132 --> 00:50:20.170
They still can figure out new ways of coping, they can still find new strength, they get stronger and their life branches out.

00:50:20.170 --> 00:50:29.188
And a final piece of good news with any luck they develop other close relationships that kind of bear some of the weight of their pain.

00:50:29.188 --> 00:50:35.333
So when your kid is 24 and they're going through a lot of pain, you may be their main source of support.

00:50:35.333 --> 00:50:41.371
But when they're 30 or 35 and they're going through some pain, with any luck.

00:50:41.371 --> 00:50:46.971
They have a very close friend or a partner who also can share some of that role with you.

00:50:46.971 --> 00:50:49.342
Wow, that's really amazing.

00:50:49.362 --> 00:50:53.112
I'm going to say thanks to both of you, val, thanks for co-hosting with me.

00:50:53.112 --> 00:50:55.766
It's been wonderful I had a great time, thank you.

00:50:55.766 --> 00:51:07.824
Susan, I am so glad I gave you a ring while I was in New York City and you answered the phone, because this has been such a delight and you've been funny and informative and everything else.

00:51:07.824 --> 00:51:09.067
Don't you agree, val yeah?

00:51:09.268 --> 00:51:11.862
Thank you for so many examples and anecdotes.

00:51:11.862 --> 00:51:15.193
It turns a very difficult topic very concrete.

00:51:15.193 --> 00:51:16.036
So thank you.

00:51:16.418 --> 00:51:17.940
Well, it was a pleasure to talk to you both.

00:51:18.181 --> 00:51:19.983
Okay, go hug those grandbab.

00:51:19.983 --> 00:51:22.467
Okay, take care, bye-bye.

00:51:22.467 --> 00:51:24.632
Well, that's a wrap.

00:51:24.632 --> 00:51:28.322
Thank you, susan for joining and Val, thanks again for co-hosting.

00:51:28.322 --> 00:51:29.706
Ellen will be back soon.

00:51:29.706 --> 00:51:35.630
I think Susan brought some great levity to this whole topic of building relationships with our adult kids.

00:51:35.630 --> 00:51:41.489
I hope her humor and insight helps us all get through the day and our journey.

00:51:41.489 --> 00:51:44.465
Remember, it's not a job, it's a relationship.

00:51:44.465 --> 00:51:48.043
There's so much more coming up on Bite your Tongue, season 2.

00:51:48.043 --> 00:51:56.409
We're going to try to bring more racial and economic diversity into the podcast, with stories from many men and women who've walked the walk and talked the talk.

00:51:56.409 --> 00:51:57.572
So stay tuned.

00:51:57.572 --> 00:52:05.188
Thank you again to Connie Fisher, our audio engineer, and remember to send your questions for our special we're On it episodes.

00:52:05.188 --> 00:52:12.269
Follow us on social media and until next time, remember, sometimes you just have to bite your tongue.