Season 3 Episode 82 Bonus Rewind: The Delicate Balance of Parenting Adult Daughters

Mother-Daughter Relationship and Connection

Speaker 1 0:01

Hi everyone , welcome to Bite your Tongue , the podcast . This is Denise , and I'm joined by my co-host , kirsten Heckendorf . Before we start this episode , we want to let you know that this is our second episode rewind . The episode we're releasing today was one of our listener favorites with Pam Tronson . She's a parenting coach with a special certification in mother-daughter relationships . We all know that the connection between a mother and daughter is one of the strongest and probably most important in many family relationships . Accepting that it can be difficult and sometimes messy is hard . Many of us are disappointed when our adult relationships with our daughters don't meet the dream we had for what these relationships look like , at least in the movies and on TV . We need to reframe that image . Pam helps us let go of control , avoid resentment and worry . So let's get started and hear what Pam has to say . Thanks for joining .

Speaker 2 1:02

Get started and hear what Pam has to say Thanks for joining Anxiety and the worry , and I've gone through it . I just took a massive , deep dive into worry and I think one of the things that even I got clarity on as I was writing was that a lot of our worry is connected to control . We , as moms , were expected to be in control right . That was a part of our job description and we had to build a control . We were supposed to be able to curate . We were supposed to be able to orchestrate , know what to do , control the environment as much as we could . Of course , I think of letting out the rope through the years where they got to have more and more autonomy , but there's still a little voice in all of our heads as moms , I think , that says , oh , you could be doing something about that .

Speaker 3 1:56

We're welcoming Pam Tronson , a certified life coach with a specialty in mother-daughter relationship . She actually trained with one of your earlier guests , Roshka Hasseldine , so you can listen to that episode with Roshka on our website or on any podcast platform from Apple , Spotify or anything in between .

Speaker 1 2:15

I love that episode with Roshka , and I have a daughter who just turned 35 . So I love that episode and I know this one's gonna be great too . It's a topic everyone seems to want to talk about .

Speaker 3 2:28

Yeah , I think it's really important . Not only are we mothers of daughters , but we're also daughters of our own mothers . So I found that kind of an interesting little twist I was thinking about the other day . But I'm fortunate , I have a good relationship with my daughter . But that hasn't happened , naturally , without some struggle from both of us from time to time and , I'm sure , at the right times teenage years and all that but what strikes me about the struggle of mothers and daughters , but families in general , is that we're living in a time when people are craving connection and yet at the same time , it's so difficult , and I don't know why it has to be so difficult .

Speaker 1 3:03

It's so difficult , and I don't know why it has to be so difficult . No , you're absolutely right . I was talking to someone this morning and I think we all had much closer relationships with our kids than probably previous generations . But I want to say two things to what you just said . One , you're lucky to have your mother , and that makes sense that you're going to see this from both angles . I've lost my mother , but I still , when I listen to these things , I think , oh , I could have been a better adult daughter . But the other thing I want to say is you mentioned the teenage years and such . For me , the teenage years were nothing . It's been the young adult years that's been much harder . So I think for everyone it's just a different ballgame .

Speaker 1 3:39

So on to Pam . Now , before I do the formal introduction , I want to tell you every Monday she sends out a message and you can sign up for a message through her website , which is PamTronsonCoachingcom , and I'll put a link to that in our episode notes . But every week I find something I love , and I said to Pam when she was joining us today I just read your things and I , like you , there's just something about her . But this week she talked about conflict and she asked readers to examine how they handle conflict and , if it doesn't work , how they can reframe .

Speaker 1 4:12

It really hit home for me , because hard for me to admit , but I am the person that argues . So when conflict hits me , I many times want to prove I'm the right one , and you know what ? I do this with my adult daughter sometimes and I realize how much I have to stop because there's no right or wrong in this . So it made me really kind of rethink anything . But anyway , I just wanted to share that Before I get in . Yeah , she is going to tell us about herself and how she got into this , but I want her to read something that I think I read on her website . So I wonder , pam , would you read that piece of copy that I sent to you earlier ?

Speaker 2 4:51

Absolutely . There are words on my website . There are also words on my heart , I think I love and adore both of my daughters , yet I was frustrated and confused by the relationship that was unfolding with each of them . It looked nothing like what I had imagined it would be , and it often consumed me . How could there be such angst between me and these beautiful souls ? I believe I had given my all to , and when I looked around , all I could see were the moms who seemed to be able to successfully work through that which I could not . What had I done wrong ? What had I missed ?

Speaker 1 5:30

I just get chills . I don't know why , but I think there are so many parents , and moms in particular , that feel that way . When you have a young adult and Kirsten and I were talking about this a little bit earlier we all try our very best , absolutely , and when things go awry it's hard . But anyway , welcome Pam , we're happy to have you . Please share with our listeners a little bit more about you , your story , because I'd like that to come from you rather than from us .

Speaker 2 5:57

Sure Well first and foremost , can I just say , denise , how thrilled I was when you reached out to me . I literally did the happy dance , thinking that there was someone out there who was bringing the spotlight to the relationship us moms have with our kids , because there's a general assumption , I think , in the world that oh yeah , you know , once you're an empty nester , everything is lovely , the kids leave , and then there's like their lives are great and our lives are great and nobody talks about it . It's challenging I mean especially now , all the different things that are going on in our world and for our kids' world , and the fact that you're doing this like I'm just . I'm so happy that you've taken the time and made the effort and I'm honored to be here today to be able to chat with you .

Speaker 1 6:48

Well , we're happy to have you and this is Kirsten's first episode as my new co-host . Yay , she is putting her mark on this too , and we both know that this is all we talk about with our friends , so why not make a public forum for it ? Absolutely , anyway , go ahead .

Speaker 2 7:03

Absolutely not make a public forum for it . Anyway , go ahead . Well , for me , I decided back in the 80s that I wanted to be a life coach which sounds kind of odd because I don't know that there was such a thing back then but I had worked with Tony Robbins , both as a participant and then I had worked as a volunteer . It was when he was still getting started and he didn't have the big staff that he had , and I just decided I'd watched so many people have these epic transformations in their lives . I was maybe one of them and I just I knew that's what I wanted to do and clearly it took me a little while to get here . But in 2018 , I had my second certification in life coaching and it was when I started to take it on as my full-time occupation .

Speaker 2 7:50

And it was funny , because everybody talks about niching down what are you going to specialize in ? For a lot of people , it's the thing that they've had the most challenges with , and for me , I was like , well , I don't know what I'm going to do , because my life's been really great and , yes , I'm on my second marriage . I always say you only get married twice , but my life seemed to be going pretty well . It wasn't like I thought I was suffering in any way and I think the universe heard me and went oh , let's give her something to suffer about . And that was when things started to kind of get a little rocky . I have two adult daughters . They're both in their 20s and things got really challenging and it was really hard and it was like okay , so here's what I'm going to apply all of my life coaching to . And I worked through so much and I was making so much progress and at the time I was kind of a general life coach for women in their 40s , 50s , 60s kind of thing .

Speaker 2 8:51

I was off on a retail therapy afternoon and walked into this store and saw this coaster that said you are the mom everyone wishes they had . And I flat out lost it right there in the store and it was just like dagger in my heart . But I'd been doing so much work . I was like damn it , I am buying this thing for myself in honor to the work that I've been doing . And I left and I was sitting in my driveway with the mascara stains on the front of my face and it was like I got this sense or I heard this voice or whatever it was that said you're not done yet . And I was .

Speaker 2 9:29

When you talk about conflict styles , I was one of those people who would go . Well , I really messed that up . Okay , I'm going to pretend that never happened . I'm going to go over here .

Speaker 2 9:38

I wasn't good at addressing things and it was like my rally cry that , no , I still had years to become the mom that I'd always wished I would be or I always hoped to be , and I was in the habit of making a video every week , and I made a video about my experience . I don't really know what having a video go viral means , but it was on Instagram and , before I knew it , I had a following and what was funny well , maybe not funny guess what touched my heart was that everybody said , oh my gosh , I thought it was just me . And we have so much shame wrapped around the idea of that aspect of failure as a mom . It's the thing that we all wanted to do . It's the thing we all wanted to be , and somehow we've just fallen on our face on the biggest stage , most important stage of our life , and there's so much shame , but we've got to see that the shame is what drags us into a corner and makes us incompetent and makes us the thing that gets in the way of the repair that's needed .

Speaker 1 10:56

I just want to say something as you say this and I apologize because I should never interrupt a guest , but I didn't want to forget what you said about . You still had time to make a change , and what I'm realizing as a parent of adult children is and I've said this on a couple other episodes this is actually the longest relationship we'll ever have with them . Yes , all that we did being room parents or running them to soccer , or making sure they were in the right school did their homework . I mean it mattered , but not like this second stage does now , because we have a chance for a real relationship . We were a parent back then . Now , as they say , we're almost like a consultant and we have to be there , but not over . Be there , does that ?

Speaker 2 11:42

make sense and it's a huge learning curve .

Speaker 1 11:46

Did you feel that way , Kirsten ? It's a learning curve . They don't listen to everything you say anymore .

Speaker 3 11:51

They don't listen to most of what you say initially and then almost guaranteed they come back later and they say I know you told me this , but and you were right , and yes , if I had really just learned the lesson to have listened to you from the beginning anyway , with everything , I'd be good Sometimes .

Speaker 1 12:12

Anyway , go ahead .

Speaker 2 12:13

Pam yeah well , and then I give the advice and I'm like , who was that ? Am I doing that ? Like , oh , that's interesting perspective , Pam . How about you apply that to your ?

Speaker 3 12:23

life .

Speaker 2 12:24

But , yes , no , completely . I know what you're saying , but yeah , so that's how I got to be where I'm at and I have to say it's funny . I had a couple of people different coaches that I work with , where I said I'm thinking of niching down and I want to work . I just want to work with moms who have challenging relationships with their adult daughters and the response I got a number of times was like well , you know , I don't really know if there's a market for that , and I was thinking one of them was a man .

Speaker 2 12:52

So you know , yeah , well thank you , I would have been staying up . Yeah , that's what I was gonna say wait a minute .

Speaker 1 12:59

We thought male listeners , kirsten , stop , they know a lot anyway . No , we're not blessed on it . I'm teasing , I'm teasing and I know you're it's something that we , I don't know .

Speaker 2 13:08

like I say we just there's an expectation that they clearly we've got it all dialed and then , like in the intro that you asked me to read , that's's one of our biggest curses is we look at all of the other people who think they've got it dialed . We think that they somehow are doing something right and we're somehow doing something wrong , and it's just another aspect of it that inevitably will sink the boat .

Speaker 1 13:35

Do you think social media plays into that ? We're seeing everyone else's life play out in front of us .

Speaker 2 13:40

Oh yeah , I mean absolutely . But when we can recognize how that's affecting us and our lives , think of the impact it's having on our kids , I mean , I'm kind of happy to be in my 60s . I wouldn't want to be going through that right now in my life . I just think that social media is awesome , the internet is awesome , and it's also just another one of those things that you just got to learn how to keep it . Get it on the short leash .

Speaker 1 14:12

All right , so let's get on to some of this .

Navigating Mother-Daughter Relationship Transitions

Speaker 1 14:14

What are some of the most common challenges or conflicts that you think arise between mothers and daughters ?

Speaker 2 14:20

Well , I think you hit the nail on the head , Denise . There is an aspect I mean , like our generation , we have been so involved in our kids' lives . I was raised in a family where you had to come home for dinner when the streetlights came on and my parents had no idea where I was half the time Schools , grades they knew nothing of that , and not that I had neglectful no , no , no .

Speaker 1 14:45

All of us grew up that way , all of us , yeah , amazing parents , but they weren't involved in our lives .

Speaker 2 14:51

But I think there's a generational turnover . I feel sorry for my mom . I was a wild child . I was everybody's nightmare , I bet . But I experienced that and came out of it with the idea of , oh , it's going to be different when I'm a mom . I'm not going to like , that's going to be , that's going to be , those things will change when I'm a mom .

Speaker 2 15:13

And I mean that's been happening for generation after generation after generation after generation we as a whole parent in response to the part where we're supposed to go sit in the stands , it can feel like a jumping off the bridge moment , because there's a moment when they call us all the time in college or we're so involved in their life and they're told about their boyfriends and what are we thinking about for career and all this kind of stuff . And I always use the analogy we've been the coach on the field with them year after year after year after year , and then all of a sudden , the next season starts and you're asked to go sit in the stands and watch and applaud when things go well and go oh , when they drop a pass . But no one's asking you like it's not your job to be their coach anymore . And crossing that bridge is very challenging , and a lot of women get so wrapped up in the identity of being that amazing mom that it's hard to put the fork down and step away from the table . But it's necessary for the evolution of this beautiful being that you gave birth to . They now need to go on and create their own life and create their own people and find their people .

Speaker 2 16:50

It's how it's supposed to happen . But we're like the little puppy no , no , no , no . See me , feel me , touch me , pet me . It's like no , no , no , no , no . You can't do this without me , Can you ? And again , forgive me , I always make the analogy . I always knew I was going to have daughters and I was like when I have daughters , they are going to be strong , confident , independent , scrappy , capable young women that can speak up for themselves and do all those things . And then it happened .

Speaker 1 17:21

I was like great , I just that that took me a minute . That took me a minute , Right , what you're saying ? Yeah , then they became capable and everything , and you were further back in the stands . Oh yeah , then I became obsolete .

Speaker 2 17:33

I kept thinking if I would have just put some fine print into the contract that said and you always be really nice to your mom Not that they're not nice , but it's exactly what we wanted . And then it's happening and we're like cool .

Speaker 3 17:45

Well , the other thing I think that's funny too , and I know you will both relate to this is when they call us and they go on and on and on because they want to share something , and it may be they got into a fight with a girlfriend or whatever . They get it all out , they leave the room or they drop the phone and you are still thinking about this and then week goes by , you haven't heard from your kid , and the next time you talk to them you're kind of like okay , so what happened ? What are you talking about ? Or , oh , and that was nothing .

Speaker 1 18:18

No , that's absolutely true . We keep it and , keep it , and keep it . But so what are the strategies ? So a parent and a mother comes to you , or a mother , maybe sometimes the adult child you said , also will come to you or do they sometimes come together .

Speaker 2 18:31

Yeah , I've had a lot of times . People will come together . I have always . I'm going to say most of my clients are the moms and I love it that way , to be honest , because I am a firm believer , it only takes one person . It's physics right One person can change , will dramatically improve the dynamics of the relationship . And I figure I've been on this planet for 35 years , 38 years longer than they have . Why not ? Why shouldn't it be me ?

Speaker 1 19:03

Let's get to your office , okay , and what are the kinds of strategies ? I think everything you said is exactly right . We all were very over-involved and , as you said that you say you work with the moms I fully believe we have a lot of work to do , because we were used to being on the field coaching I always use the analogy of the theater so you were on the stage , then you were in the orchestra , then you were in the mezzanine . All of a sudden you're out in the lobby , so you don't even know what's going on , which is exactly , like you said , what it's supposed to be , and I can intellectually talk about that a hundred times and say that's where I'm supposed to be , blah , blah , blah . But when you don't get that call , or no one's going to be home for Christmas or all of that , which is okay , it has to be okay . They have their lives how do you counsel us ?

Speaker 2 19:51

Of course , it's different depending on the person sitting in front of me , one of the things that I think I start with every single sessions , of all the sessions that I do in order to have and I know I'm not going to be the first person on your show that's ever said this , but in order to have a better relationship with anything in your life , you have to have a better relationship with your own self , and we often start there .

Exploring Mother-Daughter Relationship Dynamics

Speaker 2 20:15

I get a lot of moms that come to me that either feel just beleaguered and beaten down .

Speaker 2 20:21

Either they're there or they're just so damn angry .

Speaker 2 20:25

It starts with being able to be able to find your center , get back to your center , confidence building , and I think one of the greatest things to build our confidence is to be able to understand how our mind's working and how we're processing what's happening to us .

Speaker 2 20:42

So we spent a lot of time in the beginning working on having a better understanding of what it is that we're putting out there and how it could potentially be perceived , and part of it or maybe the next step is to be able to walk a mile in their shoes , gain some compassion and insight into what your kids are going through , to create perspective . As to , one of my favorite questions is what else could be true , just to be able to understand what it is that they're dealing with , what they're going through , and not making it just about us . And a third component is understanding what it would look like like what we want to see happen . What's the change ? It is that we're most after what would have the most impact , and then you start making steps towards how we get to achieve that , and then you start making steps towards how we get to achieve that .

Speaker 2 21:38

If there are any particular patterns or dynamics that you see frequently in your practice that are more common than others , Parents want to be over-involved and feel as though and I'm going to throw this word right back out from where it came feel as though they're entitled to being that person in their kids' lives , and so it's just helping them to redefine and reshape their attitude towards the relationship . I see a lot of people that are so wrapped up in worry . We've come to accept worry in our lives as something that's normal . Well , of course we're going to worry . Of course , like it's an accepted part of motherhood and I don't think it should be .

Speaker 2 22:23

But there's a lot of moms where we spend some time breaking that whole concept down and communication . One of the primary things is learning how to not take everything personally , because we get wrapped up into our own world and our own story that we keep telling ourselves , the story that we tell all our friends about this thing that's going on , and we just tell the same story over and over and over again and all of our friends , of course , are going oh you poor thing , you don't deserve that . Well , we get the support and the comfort that we need from them , but that's not my job as your coach . My job is to yank the rug out from underneath you a little bit and let's like let's see it for what it is . Let's get clear about what we're working with .

Speaker 1 23:11

Okay , I want to go back to worry , but I want to talk about that big E word . You used entitlement . Okay , it's very interesting because we just interviewed someone recently who said he feels that this generation is the most caring , the most socially responsible , but also the most entitled . And I just dawned on me you have two entitled people . So you have the entitled daughter that expects this from the mother and the entitled mother that expects this from the daughter . And that's a scene .

Speaker 2 23:48

Yeah , oh , it is , and I see that over and over again .

Speaker 1 23:53

What do you say to someone who ? How do you work with them to get this entitlement from them parred down Well ?

Speaker 2 24:00

again , it's discovery , it's curiosity why does it live there ? Why is it a part of the relationship ? And , digging a little bit underneath , there's so much historical stuff going on that we're sometimes not completely aware of . We live in a very patriarchal society where and I say that I'm not a , I don't hate men , I'm not someone that's going to be out there , I'm not a bra burning feminist , but we've got to be aware of that influence on our relationships and how that's playing out . But I think even just in the awareness of it , Denise , is so huge .

Parental Anxiety and Control Issues

Speaker 2 24:45

I think you know I have a lot of people that feel as though they're entitled to have that relationship with their daughter or entitled to have that relationship with their grandchildren . I know we're not going to go into that , but it's an interesting bit of quicksand to step into and I think before you can start throwing that entitled , but it can mean honestly , it means a lot of . I have a lot of people come to me and say , oh yeah , I think my kids are entitled and we think they're entitled because we they were sent to a good school . We helped them choose a school that we thought was most appropriate for them , and then they've gone to a college . There was a time in our world where college wasn't necessarily a given , it was an option , and not everybody went to college . I did college until I was 29 . But it's like it's this entitled . You know , we look at it in terms of that . It's just something we're going to give to them . Well , at the end of the day , we're just trying to help them to have everything we think they need in order to have the best lives they can . What's funny too , I have a lot of people that will come to me and they'll say if I ever said something like that to my mom .

Speaker 2 25:53

In that vein and it goes hand in hand with the idea of when we try to kind of curate their lives so they don't have to deal with the hardships that we had I think we sometimes have this expectation that they can be able to teletransport themselves into our childhood and our lives and go oh yeah , mom sure had it different than I do . Like , isn't mom amazing , Because I don't have to deal with these things that she dealt with , Except that they don't have that power . What they have , I mean it's relative , Like they're normal , Like normal is a very relative thing . So of course I'm going to go to college . Of course I'm going to do all those things Like that's what everybody does and we're happy to help them because we can . You're exactly right .

Speaker 1 26:45

I want to ask another question . Do you see a difference in families with two girls or three girls and a boy and a girl ? What's the dynamic there in terms of the son versus the daughter and that sort of thing ?

Speaker 2 26:58

Well , again , depends on the family . I think it's interesting . I've looked for research on it . There is no research on it because most research is done by men and the fathers of psychology are never going to dive into this one . But there is a very unique bond between mother and daughter and it's historical , it's from . You know , we can look at it from an evolutionary standpoint and it's historical . We can look at it from an evolutionary standpoint , but it's there , it exists , and it's a different kind of bond .

Speaker 2 27:26

Information is transmitted through a glance as opposed to any other kind of demonstrative way . It's different , and I don't have boys , so I don't have a literal experience of that , but I do think it's incredibly . It's a different relationship with the boys and let's face it okay . So go back to the patriarchal society , go back , however many generations I mean . Our world was created where the man sits at the top of the pyramid as the person of wisdom who provides for the family and who doesn't really have any responsibilities to the ways , has authority , of course , until dad comes home or until that son rises up beside her . It's a different way that the and again I'm talking five or six generations ago , the different way that son is looked at . He's going to be the one that takes over the family business or he's going to be whatever that is . He has a different role and they're treated differently .

Speaker 2 28:39

I have a lot of clients who have one of each and they're like oh no , my son adores me , he's a piece of cake , he's whatever . It's a different relationship and , like I say , I have no literal experience of it , but I have witnessed it and the dynamics of people come to me . I have one client who has five daughters and she told me that in the first place and I was like I'd rather drive a red hot poker in my eye . I can't imagine what that would be like and she's kick-ass , she's an amazing woman . But I can't imagine what it would be like to have five daughters , six women , in the same household , Unless , of course , you had six guest houses or something .

Speaker 3 29:25

One of the things that I have found the most difficult is of my three kids . I have two boys and a girl . My daughter is always the one to point out whatever it is about me , about my character , as she sees it about . It doesn't matter what it is , and I guess that I've always looked at it as her figuring out who she is . And in order to figure out who she is , she's needed to do a kind of this push pull thing , because she'll do it and she'll be pretty tough on me .

Speaker 3 29:59

And then , five minutes later , she needs a hug , and so is that a common theme . Is it something that they need to do in their own development ? That's how I've viewed it .

Speaker 2 30:13

Well , I think it's a really healthy thing for them to do , because the other option is to not have any interaction with you growing up and this kind of banter back and forth , and then they're the ones that blame when they start pointing out all those things that they think are wrong with you . To be able to reframe that in a way where I like to see it as data , because things are again I think you're dead on . They are testing out theories , the radar's up , and they're trying to figure out themselves , often through you , because there's so many of our own qualities that , sadly , we see reflected in our kids . Can they just get the good parts , please , please . But so it is a discovery and you're safe , right , remember when our kids were toddlers and they're like oh yeah , they save all their worst behavior for you because they can't .

Speaker 2 31:20

Well , guess what ? That doesn't necessarily go away . It's just more personal when you're talking to a 17-year-old or a 15-year-old , 30-year-old .

Speaker 1 31:32

Let's forget those teen years . Yeah , it really develops a lot more . When 17 , you can still say well , they're a teenager . But when they're 27 , 28 , 29 , 30 , you sort of expect this respect . And , like Lawrence Steinberg said , he's the one who wrote this recent big book on your adult children Gone are the days of honor thy father and mother .

Speaker 2 31:54

Yeah , well , honestly , we can see all the statistics about how we're generally moving away from organized religion again , for better , for worse , but that kind of comes to us so clearly from that . And the family and all that kind of stuff . Yeah , we're moving into a world where we do think more about the individual than we do as a group .

Speaker 1 32:15

What do you tell a client ? I want to go back to what you said about worry number one and also what Kirsten said about . But you have to have a lot of self-esteem to listen and not react Okay . So I want to know about that and I want to also know what you tell a parent who does worry all the time . The kid they may have the distance , the kid's doing great , they're on their own , but they could get fired from this job . Are they working hard enough ? Should they really be dating this person ? I don't like the neighborhood they're living in . You could think of all the different things you worry about . Did they send a thank you note to Aunt Sally when she sent them that money ? How does a parent deal with all that anxiety ?

Speaker 2 32:56

and worry . Well , the anxiety and the worry and I actually have to say I just finished creating this little 50-page mini book that I'm going to be I'm not sure when the podcast will air , but that'll be available and I've gone through it . I just took a massive , deep dive into worry and I think one of the things that even I got clarity on as I was writing was that a lot of our worry is connected to control . We , as moms , were expected to be in control , right . That was a part of our job description and we had to be able to control . We were supposed to be able to curate , we were supposed to be able to orchestrate , know what to do , control the environment as much as we could , and , of course , I think of you know letting out the rope through the years where they got to have more and more autonomy . But there's still a little voice in all of our heads as moms , I think , that says , oh , you could be doing something about that . Maybe you should try to fix that . We want to still stay so on their everything and the thing with control .

Speaker 2 34:08

It's like we don't have control , we cannot control the other humans , and for some of my clients I always say put it on a sticky note , put it on your fridge , put it on your mirror , put it everywhere , tattoo it across your forehead , get it on the inside of your arm . We cannot control the other humans . We can't . We have no control over them . We have no control over what happens to them . We can't , we have no control over them . We have no control over what happens to them .

Speaker 2 34:45

But our brains go down the rabbit hole because and this is where worry comes in we would rather go there and know the outcome as opposed to just going . Well , I don't really have any control , I don't really know what's going to go on . Your brain does not like that . Your brain wants something that it can hold on to , and releasing control means releasing control , being at peace with the next thing that comes , releasing control , being at peace with the next thing that comes . Boy , I really believe that , and worry is that thing we just want . We want to know what's going to happen , even if it's horrible , which is a crazy thing that our brain does .

Speaker 1 35:20

But if we can't control them , we can control our worry , meaning I'm going to hang on to this worry because I can't change the situation . And I also just wonder I've never thought about this the stronger you are , the more successful you are as a woman . You've been in control of a business . You've been in control . You're not used to not being in control . I have a personal experience . My daughter was 35 . She was getting married . She really wanted to do it all and I've done events my whole life , always in control of the whole thing . It was the hardest thing I ever did was to sit back and bite my tongue and watch it all happen . And I say to my husband I'm making all these lists . And he said well , she's doing it . Why are you doing it ? Well , I'm not sharing them with her , but I got to go through that in order for me to be quiet .

Speaker 2 36:04

Well , and I have to say , denise , the fact that you did that . It's something that I recommend to clients all the time . We've got to get in the habit of writing it down , whether it be a list , or I encourage this thing called thought downloads , just to literally get the stuff that's swirling in our brains out of our brains and onto a piece of paper . Horrible , crappy thoughts can't hide if they're on a piece of paper . They can hide in the backs of our brains . But if you write down , if you think about all the things you're worried about and you write them down and you look at if you're honest in what it is you're writing , and then you look at the words , you're like , well , that's stupid . Why would I think that ? No , that's not going to happen , I don't need to worry about it . Like I say , bad thoughts can't hide when you've got them down on paper . So it is . I'm glad that you went and wrote down lists , major lists of all the things that you wanted to focus on . It's healthy .

Speaker 1 37:04

I did tell her I worried and worried and worried . This was the most perfect wedding ever . You knew exactly what you were doing , exactly what to do , and I'm glad I bit my tongue and it was hard for me to stand back , oh yeah .

Speaker 2 37:21

I must say , like in that moment when you did it and hardest thing you've ever done , that's the other thing we don't do really a really good job as moms , especially as being able to celebrate . This is what I wanted to do , this was what I chose to do , and then give yourself a gold star a little bit of a happy dance . It's like , oh yeah , I got this , I did it . We have to be able to celebrate the wins . Our brains are wired . We are innately driven to find everything that's gone wrong , so we have to counterbalance it by actively finding the things that go right and hang on to them .

Speaker 3 37:55

Well , that brings my next point up , which is to go back to something you said earlier about self-care and the importance of that . What self-care practices and strategies do you recommend to your client ?

Establishing Healthy Boundaries and Self-Respect

Speaker 2 38:08

One of my most favorite ones . It's called boundaries , because , okay , I'm going to just weave a couple of things in here . If I want to get my listeners , my followers , riled up , I just drop in a post about respect and there'll be , like you know , 200 responses . Everybody's got an opinion about respect and these kids don't have respect anymore , and yadda , yadda , yadda , yadda , yadda . Well , it's a hot button for so many people and there's so many things like that , like respect . We have to be able to have it for ourself first , and that's how I think we encourage respect into our lives . We have to learn how to love ourselves first before we can expect another human to love us fully , deeply . And self-respect and boundaries . I think that's why you have boundaries . That's what boundaries for me , that's why we created boundaries , so it's a form of self-respect .

Speaker 1 39:08

Give me an example of a boundary you might have with your daughter .

Speaker 2 39:12

I'm just thinking of some of the clients that I've worked with , daughters who tend to get really overly emotional on a telephone conversation where you can say , and again , boundaries are not what you need them to do . Boundaries are not a way to control the other humans . Boundaries are a way you set a boundary . If you do this , then I'm going to do this , but it's not like I'm going to scream , it's like when we get on . If we get on a phone call and it gets too heated , I'm going to just set this out ahead of time . I reserve the right to raise my hand and we can end the conversation . I'm going to take care of myself . This is nonproductive . So in conversation , if things get too heated , I'm reserving the right . I will step away from the conversation . I will hang up , I will go for a walk . I will do that to take care of myself .

Speaker 1 40:07

And then will you connect later . How do you reconnect after that ?

Speaker 2 40:11

No , there's always . Yeah , you always want to be able to set it up where a chance you just need a breather .

Speaker 1 40:17

You just needed a breather .

Speaker 2 40:18

Well , you need a breather . But it's also . It's a message like no , you don't get to talk to me like that . I want to talk about this . I want to get deep . It can get ugly , but you don't get to curse at me , you don't get to call me names .

Speaker 3 40:30

You don't get to .

Speaker 2 40:32

you know , and the thing is like , even just , I'm just thinking of one client in particular like she is aware , or she's become aware , that her daughter goes to that spot when she feels out of control , when she feels things spiraling . So , again , we're not going to take that personally , that's about my daughter , that's not about me , that's about my daughter . But , fyi , when the switch gets flipped and you go to that space , we're going to take a pause . We want to have productive , strong , meaningful , deep conversations . That's never going to be a part of it . So , and the other thing , my , my , my coach . I love her so deeply , but her favorite words are I love you and no .

Speaker 2 41:19

So when you have a situation where your daughter just expects you to be available , or whatever that is , I have a couple of clients whose daughter they are the second nanny , and they just don't feel as though you know they'll be out doing something nice for themselves and daughter will call up and say are you close by ? Can you just come by and do you know ? And in some ways it's like there's part . There's days where you're like , woo , yeah , I'll be there in two minutes , but you're also allowed on the days where , no , you have plans . You don't have to change your day and cancel all your plans just so you can go be with them . It's for fear that if you don't , you might get not asked back again .

Speaker 1 42:04

Why do parents feel that way so much nowadays ? I think what you just said is critical . It's like , yes , I'll be there . You want me to send you that , I'll send it right away . It's almost like we flipped roles .

Speaker 2 42:16

Yeah , we do . And again , I made the joke of being the puppy . We just . You know , whatever attention you can give me is I'll take it . Yeah , I'll take it , but that's .

Speaker 2 42:30

I always have the expression you got to lay down to be a doormat . If you're in a place where resentment is building , where you feel that like to me , that's the telltale sign . You need to set a boundary is when resentment is storming into your life . That's the time where you've got to go . You know , I got to stand up for me and it's courage and it's bravery , because you know what , as women , what do you mean ? I mean you have got your own . You've got your own needs . What do you mean ? You have your own plans . It's like , come on , you're supposed to be the mom Everybody , everything for everybody , all the time . Like you're supposed to be selfless , like we've been for generations . We've been praised as being those selfless mothers that put everyone else's needs above their own .

Speaker 2 43:10

I remember being with my husband and his mom , who is like one of the most amazing women on the planet . God bless St Janie . She had six children five boys , one girl . It's , you know , 96 years old , so amazing . But we were talking one time and there was her son saying just this my mom , she is just the most selfless individual . She's never put , you know , she's always puts everybody's needs first , and going on and on idolizing this version that I think in his brain he believes that that's what we are all aspiring to . And she was so cute . She kind of looked at me and raised one eyebrow and gave me a little wink and I was like , oh , you got this mom , because she was like Well , you know , and people don't think of that because really that is such a compliment she's so selfish .

Speaker 1 44:01

So we talked about this with Roshka a little bit and I know you know , yeah . And we thought we actually yeah we titled the episode the burnt hamburger because you're at the barbecue the hamburgers , there's one that's burnt . Who takes it ?

Speaker 2 44:17

yeah , why I mean , look at the herd of lions . The female lions all go out and they bring back food for the pack and then they retreat back and they sit back until everybody else has been fed . And then it's their turn . I mean it's just somehow . I mean it is the way . It's that generational thing that we've been raised .

Speaker 1 44:41

Well , and also they came from us . Many breastfed them . It's very nurturing , so it's a real hard balance . One of your newsletters you talked about adult daughters not really needing us or wanting us . In fact , you said they might not like us , so that hurts . How do parents deal with that , with their daughter and with themselves ?

Speaker 2 45:04

Well , I think that the whole idea of and we got to look at the idea of being needed right Our job we call it raising kids we think of this part of our life is that where we're raising kids , we're not raising kids or raising adults . The goal was to create and be able to launch these humans into the world that didn't need us . Like that's , that was a part , like that's a part of what we're supposed to do . We're supposed to be launching adults that can be independent , that can be all those things , and it is hard . That's something that we have to get over . No , they don't need us . And instead of going , oh , they don't need us , to be able to go , whoo , and they don't need us .

Speaker 2 45:47

Like it all depends on how you say those words , you know , like that should be a big pat on the back they don't need us anymore . Like it's awesome . My husband's really good at that . I don't know I'm getting better , but he's very good at applauding that part of the process and it's a great thing and the whole love or they don't like me anymore

Reframing Love and Relationship Dynamics

Speaker 2 46:08

. We all know relationships are messy and believing that they're not supposed to be messy is a very I do not recommend it . We think we have this idea is how it's supposed to turn out and what it should look like .

Speaker 1 46:25

It should look like a Hallmark movie , shouldn't it ? Oh yeah .

Speaker 2 46:28

All that kind of stuff . Like it should look like a Hallmark movie , shouldn't it ? That's one of the things I always say is like be very careful when the word should pops up into your thoughts , because should is like could covered in shame . You know so . So we have it should covered in shame .

Speaker 1 46:46

That's great .

Speaker 2 46:47

We look at this life that we've created it is supposed to be messy by design and how many times have you thought , oh my gosh , you know what I love you . I don't really like you right now . It's okay to say that about your kids . Your kids are pretty good about saying it about you . You know those are very easy words to roll off their mouth . It's okay in the relationship where there'll be times where you're looking at your kid going . You know that's not my favorite version of you . But especially with I know I said it before , but with a mother and a daughter there is a love part . We'll call it love . We'll call it a bond . I don't know if it's an umbilical cord or what it is . We are corded to our moms . There's a cord running between mother and daughter that I call it love .

Speaker 2 47:42

It's at the space of the between , and I think it's something that it never goes away and I think it's something that it never goes away .

Speaker 3 47:49

It is interesting why does love have to be this very singular idea ? Based on what you just said ? Love should encompass all of the messy and the reason why we want to do what it is we're doing . So I think that the word love just needs to be redefined . Maybe .

Speaker 2 48:18

Absolutely , absolutely . And I think that we can apply it in so many ways . When you get that list from your kids of all the things that you've done wrong and all the things that they're holding you accountable for , it's an act of love Because in its essence they're saying here's the things that I'm very challenged by . It's kind of a cry for help . Can we fix this ?

Speaker 1 48:39

It's also they care enough to bring it to you .

Speaker 2 48:42

Yes , yes , they care enough to give you that list of all the things that you've messed up on .

Speaker 1 48:48

Care enough to give you that list of all the things that you've messed up on , and let's be clear here that they believe , they perceive that you've messed up on Yep , and that's their belief , which means you got to take it . But yeah , because we've all messed up . We've all messed up .

Speaker 2 49:01

Of course , that was one of the things that I had to do a lot of work on . For me is I'm a perfectionist , yeah , and the idea of that I made mistakes , that I let me say it , let me try Failed Right . Okay , wait , I said it .

Speaker 1 49:19

Yeah , I mean like that it was a hard thing for me to wrap my arms around .

Speaker 2 49:26

Did you come to church with you ? Don't fail if you keep trying . You know what ? I come from a school where failing is highly encouraged . Oh , okay , right , like how many times ? Like it was a question well , how many times have you failed today ? Well , I don't fail . You know that's not what I do , but it was like no , we turned the language and the energy around behind that word . It's like how many times have you failed today ?

Speaker 3 49:46

Because failing is learning behind that word . It's like how many times you've failed today , because failing is learning . So , pam , we're getting kind of the end of this and really wanted to say thank you for all of it . So great to have you .

Speaker 2 50:00

We always ask our guests to leave us with two or three takeaways that you want our listeners to remember . Okay , one of them . My father always used to say to me you have a choice . You get to be either part of the problem or part of the solution , and I think , as moms , we often find ourselves in a default position of being a part of the problem when it comes to a challenging relationship with our kids . Be able to own that , like , instead of going go problems I mean like again we talk about we were talking about failure like to be able to own the idea that yeah , yeah , there's been some things that haven't gone that well , there's been some things I've done wrong and to own them . Because when you own the air quote problems , like you get to take responsibility for them , and some people are , you know that feels like a really horrible thing to do , but when you own a problem , then you have the power to do something about it . So it's that kind of responsibility , that taking a responsibility , that I think is incredibly empowering for us all . The other thing I would like to leave with is learn how to ask better questions . When we throw a question out into the universe , our brain will answer it . So when we say why does this always happen to me ? Your brain's going to come back with . Because you're dumb , you know , or because you're worthless , or because you're a bad person Like your brain is not the right source for answering questions . If , like , if you're asking bad questions , so better questions . To be able to sit back and look at the situation you're in and to hear the thoughts , to hear the story that's playing in your brain and to be able to take the pause and go . Is this serving me ? Does thinking this thought make it better ? What else could be true ? What's the other aspect here that I'm missing ? And then the other thing , too , that just implies the fact that it is a choice . It's like why am I choosing to think this ? Why am I choosing this aspect of my story ? And I promise you there's a benefit there .

Speaker 2 52:24

When we talk about falling into victim mode . The one thing that's really nice about victim mode you don't have to do anything , you can just point your finger at other people . I feel like this because my daughter says these things or because she won't come to have Christmas with us . If you're in victim mode , you don't have to do anything . You just can sit in that well and point fingers at everybody else . So be curious , bring curiosity to the table and be curious about the different things that you can do .

Speaker 2 53:00

And the other thing I was gonna say and I think this I've already touched on this a little bit is that we often believe that other people are doing it , but they're not . Other moms that look like they've got it all dialed , they're not doing it right , they're doing it differently and we're all wildly different humans having their own experience , or kids are wildly different humans having their own experiences . We have to be able to be fluid and to get off that whole compare thing . I don't remember who it was , but it always talks about compare and despair , and that could be more true than in this particular situation .

Speaker 1 53:39

Those are so great . Thank you so much and thanks for joining us . I'm so glad I reached out and we'll be in touch . This was terrific . We really appreciate you joining us .

Speaker 2 53:49

Well , and I've enjoyed it so much , and , denise , I am eternally grateful for it for the work you're doing and for allowing me to be a part of it .

Speaker 1 54:02

Thank you . So that episode was a little long , but she had so much to say and so many great things to say . Thank you so much , pam . So much to think about Listeners . Please remember to check out Pam's website , pamtronsoncoachingcom that's P-A-M-T-R-O-N-S-O-N-Coachingcom , and make sure you sign up to get her . I guess it's a document that highlights the four pitfalls to avoid with your adult daughter . It's a really great piece of writing .

Speaker 3 54:31

Denise , thank you so much . That was really great today . She's obviously been doing this for a long time and has had sort of a wealth of experience personally , but also to their clients , and I just can't help but think , not just for my daughter but also my relationship with my mother , that there's a lot of great pearls of wisdom in all of this , and I'm excited to put some things in action .

Speaker 1 54:55

And I think there's a cross between your sons too . All of this is about looking at ourselves , and that's so important . Congratulations on your first episode , first real episode , and welcome to Bite your Tongue . So , anyway , and thanks so much to Connie Morton Fisher , our audio engineer . Please remember to write to us at BiteYourTonguePodcast , at gmailcom . Let us know if you have any questions or ideas . Remember to follow us on Facebook and Instagram and , once again , any donation will keep us going . Just go to our website at BiteYourTonguePodcastcom and select support us . You'll find lots of ways you can help keep us going . So , thanks so much . Thanks for listening and remember , sometimes you say it , kirsten , sometimes you just have to bite your tongue .

Speaker 3 56:26

Thank you .